Service Rifle Optics (From 1945 to Modern)

NavyShooter

NavyShooter

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
100   0   0
Location
XMU Local .303
Well, there's a pile of threads to do with service rifle optics.

Here's a couple:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31083

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415695



I'm not going to re-invent the wheel with this spiel, but I'm going to do some looking at things that folks may (or may not) find of interest.

I'm taking some photos, and recording some data.

I'll start with the list of optics that I'm looking at.

Elcan Specter DR 1-4
Millet DMS-1
Elcan C-79 (Gen IV)
L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux
Telescope Sighting No 32 Mk III

Here's the family photo:

April%20077%20(Medium).jpg


This is a bit of a diverse collection of optics to be looking at, especially when you consider the generations that they come from.

Despite the difference in age and application, (Sniper scope and civilian scope alongside service rifle scopes) we can compare these as they are all, relatively speaking, similar. All are 4X or less. All are designed to mount to a service rifle with little or no modification to the original rifle (#4T excepted...but it's still basically a #4)

I'm first going to do a few basic comparisons between the 5 optics. Starting with weight. Using my wife's weight watcher's scale from the kitchen, here's what they weigh:

646 g Elcan Specter DR 1-4
681 g Millet DMS-1
656 g Elcan C-79 (Gen IV)
706 g L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux
1077 g Telescope Sighting No 32 Mk III

Note, both the L2A2 and the #32 include the weight of their dedicated mounting brackets. If someone can chime in with the weight of the #32 scope's mounting bracket, I'll subtract that from the 1077g. I can, however, put a plain topcover on the scale (82g) and subtract that from the weight of the L2A2, giving it a corrected weight of 624g total weight for the optic and it's mount.

Oh, and for anyone who's really interested, here's a rough cost comparison for buying these optics:

$1800 Elcan Specter DR 1-4
$344 Millet DMS-1
$800 Elcan C-79 (Gen IV) (used)
$500 L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux
$1200 Telescope Sighting No 32 Mk III

A couple of these prices may be higher than you see above, basically though, this is around $4650 worth of optics, not including scope covers, etc....in case you want to gather a set of these together to look at in person yourself...


Now, here's what the reticules look like:


Elcan Specter DR 1-4
April%20114%20(Medium).jpg


Millet DMS-1
April%20132%20(Medium).jpg


Elcan C-79 (Gen IV)
April%20105%20(Medium).jpg


L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux
April%20099%20(Medium).jpg




Telescope Sighting No 32 Mk III
April%20089%20(Medium).jpg


I figure I'll add some more to this in a bit, for now, it's almost time to get supper ready for the kiddies.

NS
 
NS,, nice. Feed us more.
I'm interested in your thoughts on using the DR for service rifle shooting,, do you think shooting off the reticle is the way to go, or with the gate open and mark the ranges with a pen deal?
 
For the next step, I'll look at scope adjustments.


1/2 MOA Elcan Specter DR 1-4
1/2 MOA Millet DMS-1
1 MOA Elcan C-79 (Gen IV)
1/2 MOA L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux
1 MOA Telescope Sighting No 32 Mk III
 
Now we'll look in detail at one of the sights, the L2A2 Sight Unit Infantry Trilux (SUIT)

This is the predecessor to the current SUSAT sight for the L-85 series weapons, and was designed to fit the L1A1 rifle.

There were also mounts to allow it to be fitted to the M-16, and the GPMG.

I built a web-page about it ages ago, and here's the link:

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/trilux.htm

Here's some extant exerpts:

History:

The UK employed the SUIT sight as it's standard issue infantry small arms combat sight until the L1A1 SLR rifle was replaced by the current issue bullpup SA-80 with the SUSAT combat sight.

The SUIT was designed and developed by the Royal Armament Research and Development Establishment (RARDE), and was manufactured by Avimo Ltd. of Taunton, UK.

The sight was designed with the following three characteristics in mind:
Enable the firer to engage night targets at twice the range at which he can do so with the unaided eye and desirably three times the range.

Assist in the acquisition and engagement of targets with low background contrast at the effective range appropriate to the weapon.




To be capable of attachment to the following weapons:
  • SLR (L1A1)
  • GPMG
  • M-16
To meet these design requirements, RARDE essentially took half of a set of prismatic binoculars, inserted an aiming pointer, and developed a mounting system for the SLR bodycover. In May of 1971, a series of trials were held at Warminster Infantry Training Center, UK, where the initial model (L2A1) SUIT sight was compared against the "Hythe" sight and a commercial "Single point" sight. Some minor modifications to the latch spring were proposed, and the sight was standardized for issue as the L2A2 SUIT (Trilux) sight.

Characteristics:

Nomenclature: Sight Unit Infantry Trilux L2A2
NSN: 1240-99-964-7647
Dimensions:

Length: 18.8 cm
Width: 7.6 cm
Height: 6.9 cm
Weight: 340 gm

Reticule: Illuminated inverted post
Range Settings: 300m (rear), 500m (forward)
Magnification: 4X
Objective Aperture: 25.5 mm
Field of View: 8 degrees (140 mils)
Light Transmission: 86%
Exit Pupil Diameter: 6.6 mm
Eye Relief: 35 mm
Environment: -75C to +90C
Active Element: 0.22 curies of Tritium gas
Illumination colour: Red
Manufacturer: Avimo Ltd.
Click to expand...

The SUIT consists of two main parts. The Body and the Mount.

The Body is made of an aluminium alloy for lightness and contains the optical system. The ocular lens is located centrally over the rifle, and the objective lens is offset to the left to avoid obstruction by the front sight. The Arm, attached to the lower part of the body secures the sight to the mount and aligns it with the bore.

The Mount consists of a rifle bodycover and an adaptor. The Mount has a locating pin which mates to the lateral adjustment alignment block, a v-notched cradle at the front to mate with the elevating screw, a central attachment point for the spring-latch, and a platform for the range control lever. The bodycover is standard, with the addition of a spot-welded frame to which the mount is rivetted.

Installation and Operation

The installation of the SUIT sight is as simple as replacing the standard bodycover with the bodycover/mount, lifting the spring-latch, setting the sight onto the mount then lowering the spring-latch to lock the sight into place.

To zero the sight, there is a windage adjustment on the lower right hand side of the sight. Each rotation of the lateral adjustment screw moves the MPI 100 mm at 100 meters. The screw has 8 graduations, thus each graduation line corresponds to roughly 1/2 MOA. R-L is inscribed above the lateral adjustment screw to indicate which direction of rotation will move the MPI left or right.

There is a vertical adjustment screw located at the forward end of the arm. The adjustments are identical to that of the lateral adjustments, except that it is marked E-D for Elevate and Depress. Located forward and right of the vertical adjustment screw there is a set-screw that locks the elevation adjustment. This set-screw should be loosened prior to adjusting the elevation, and should be tightened once the sight has been properly zeroed to maintain repeatability.

The sight has a range control lever built in. It is located on the right hand side of the sight. It is set to the rear (300m position) for engaging targets up to 400 meters, and to the front (500m position) for engaging targets between 400 and 600 meters. Normal maximum engagement range is considered to be 600 meters.

When the sight is used at night, the reticule illumination (Trilux or LED) should be activated and set to an appropriate brightness level. The range control lever should be set to the rear (300m) for night engagement.
Click to expand...

fig159t.jpg


fig161t.jpg
 
Ok, speaking of elevation adjustments, look closely at this photo:

April%20091%20(Medium).jpg


You can see here the "E-D" of the elevation adjustment screw, with the locking screw on the side.

Here is a top-down view of the same area:

April%20092%20(Medium).jpg


Here you can see the 8 divisions, each of which is described as being 1/2 MOA. A full rotation of the elevation screw (360 degrees) will move the sight up or down by 100 mm at 100m. The bolt to the right of the letter "D" is the locking screw. It has a captive bolt that enters from the left.

The rifle is sighted in and the setting is "good" for between 100-300 meters.

If a target beyond 400 meters is to be engaged, then there is a flip-lever that actually raises the rear of the sight, correcting for the drop of the round. As mentioned in the characteristics above, it's set for 300m, or 500m.

Here is that flip lever in the forward (300m) position: (Just below the lever, you can see the windage adjustment screw.)

April%20093%20(Medium).jpg


And here you can see it in the "500m" position, to the rear, allowing a better view as well of the windage screw:

April%20094%20(Medium).jpg


Now, unfortunately, I do not have the AR-15/M-16 sight platform for this, so I'm unable to mount it on an AR (it was designed for carrying handle mounting!!!) and with the prohibition of FN's, this sits very quietly in my safe, hanging out on the British L1A1 I purchased from Century Arms in Montreal in 1992.

The last time I fired it, (a WHILE ago) I actually removed the eye-cup.

Note that the specifications for this scope list the eye relief at 35mm.

The rubber cup is over 35mm long. The optic was actually designed to be fired with the eye-cup pressed against your eye! This seems to have carried forward with their newer SUSAT sight, having short eye relief, as shooters that've visited the UK will note how many Brit riflemen end up with an eye-cup ring around their eye with the SUSAT.

Anyhow, since I have eye-glasses, the eye-cup prevented me from ever properly attaining good eye relief, so the last time i fired it, I pulled it off, and it actually was reasonably accurate.

The test-groups I fired with some surplus ammo were in the 1.5" range at 100m, and when I pumped some 168's through it, the rifle turned in a 5 shot group of around 3/4".

Not too shabby.

However, since I lack the AR mount, and mostly due to the terrible eye-relief, this scope has little future for me except as a dust collector in my safe.

Something to note though, this is a QD scope, and you can see how easily it is removed, simply lift the lever, and hoist it off.

How well it retained it's zero is something I truly never tested, and alas, I suspect that without a change of laws, I never will.

More to follow....
 
Shelldrake said:
NS,, nice. Feed us more.
I'm interested in your thoughts on using the DR for service rifle shooting,, do you think shooting off the reticle is the way to go, or with the gate open and mark the ranges with a pen deal?
Click to expand...

Shelldrake,

More being fed....hope it's of interest.

I've been looking at the DR, and pondering the hold-off vs. click off debate.

The DR is calibrated in 1/2 MOA clicks, so it would be more accurate in it's adjustments if you clicked off, but you'd also end up having to click twice as much to get the same correction.

For example, on a rundown from 5-1, there's usually a 12 click change (2, 3, 3, 4) for me using a C-79, so that'd become 24 clicks on the DR.

On the other hand, this DR has the M-4 reticule in it (14.5"), so it's calibrated for the drop of a different barrel length than I use (20") so the built in BDC reticule isn't going to be accurate for me either.

One of the big advantages to the Clicking method is that you maintain the same POA, regardless of the distance. Aim for the Chin/wrist, hit that spot.

Once you start holding off, you have to go back to the days of remembering what your POA was at every distance, and during a run-down, that can (and has) been forgotten.

I'm still pondering the solution there....I might try closed gate for a bit and see what the holds are like, at least in practice to trial it. I remember how to do that....

I might also just go back to the 300/6 o'clock Zero (400m POA/POI Zero) that we used to use with the iron sighted C-7, with bullets hitting 7, 9, 11" high at 100, 200, and 300 respectively, POA POI at 400, and 18" low at 500....I've been considering that for this year's matches too.

Oh yeah, have a peek at the windage screw.....it's also 1/2 MOA, and it's OPPOSITE to the C-79....turn CCW to go right on the DR, turn CW to go right on the C-79....confusing????

I'll probably try this during the LFAA SAC at the end of the month and I'll let you know how I make out, ok?

NS
 
As a followup to this thread.

I shot the NSRA's Rudland-Weber Cup matches yesterday (SR Matches 1-4) and had my hat handed to me.

I tried shooting with the Millet DMS-1 and the EX-022 mount.

I was unable to attain proper eye relief, and cheek-weld using this mount, as a result, spent matches 1 and 2 hunting for decent sight picture.

I gave up for matches 3 and 4, and switched back to the Specter DR, and managed to pull the socks up a bit, but alas, with the winner only dropping 8 points on the day, and me dropping 9 points in Match 1, this didn't work out so well for me.

So, while the DMS-1 scope may be decent, the EX-022 mount does NOT provide what I'm looking for from this optic.

So, the DMS-1 will go back on the shelf until I find what I need.

Any suggestions?

NS
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom