Sharing a press
- Thread starter sclifford
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Then you will want a basic press because once you start reloading there is will be lots of small batches for load development of unusual calibers. It grows on you fast once you realize any caliber is fine if you can find dies.
When I first moved to the new digs 6 years ago I was in exactly this situation. My Dillon was buried in a huge stack of boxes that I swore I would not touch until the shop renos were done for fear of being knee deep in "stuff" and not able to work. And stupid me didn't mark that box and set it aside where I could get at it.
What I did find on the edges of the mountain of boxes was the Lee gear I'd been given to start out with. So for myself and a buddy we loaded on a three position Lee manually indexable turret press using a hand primer and a dipper to dole out the powder. What I found was that we were able to load 150 rounds of hand gun ammo per hour starting with clean brass with the spent primers still in the cases. We used a generic 50 round loading tray to hold and work on 50 cases at a time.
The procedure was;
- Size and decap with the first die.
- flare the case mouths with the second die.
- Prime cases with a Lee hand primer.
- Powder up the cases with a dipper measure.
- Check for proper powder level using flashlight to peer into cases.
- Seat and crimp bullets with the third die.
Where we used this turret to advantage was that having all the dies already set and adjusted saved us likely 5 to 7 minutes worth of changing and checking that would be needed for a screw in style single stage press otherwise. But other than that if there is a slower way to load handgun ammo I've yet to see it. So I'd say that 150/hour once you get the hang of it all is about the minimum amount.
Using a Lee Breechlock or a Hornady Lock n' Load single stage with the bayonet style locking bushings would make a single stage press just as fast for this sort of loading as the manually indexed turret press.
Adding things like an adjustable powder drop to the flaring die which typically also holds a powder measure on a turret style press would greatly speed things up even with a single stage press. And a good quality on press primer tool that could be used during the sizing and decapping step would further speed things up. With the right sort of single stage press setup that uses on press priming and on press powder dispensing I can see 200 per hour or maybe a touch more as very possible and safe.
These numbers are for handgun ammo or rifle ammo that is used more for plinking or action shooting. For serious accuracy rifle I'm a big fan of weighing out each charge with a dipper and trickler. And THAT really slows things down. At that point using a single stage sure isn't the big limiting factor for rounds per hour.
Back to the original question..... Share or not.
If the intent is to see the gear move between houses then you had best really know the person well and know that they are the sort that will replace anything that breaks with no encouragement needed. I think that I may be one of the luckier sorts since I can rapidly count off about 10 such folks that I'd trust to do that. But at the same time I also know a lot of others that I would not lend even an old bent spoon.
Another option might be to make the equipment available to your buddy's at a buck per 50 loads being tossed into a jar to help pay back the cost of the gear. And on top of that the understanding that if they break anything that shouldn't break that they pay for the part. That's still a good deal for them and over time will help pay back your investment. The only issue being that you're still out of pocket in the short term.
Time is also a part in all this. If you're loading handgun or less critical rifle ammo in bulk a progressive can compress a lot of loading into a shorter time. If you're tight for spare time because of other commitments from family, work or whatever it may be the only viable option. But if you have time to watch a few hours worth of TV per month then you can buy a better quality single stage and set it up to load even your handgun ammo needs for cheaper than a progressive setup.
And as an aside bonus your IQ will likely rise by avoiding the drivel that is so common on regular TV these days.
The money spent on the single stage will not be wasted either. I far and away prefer a single stage for my rifle loading for the powder handling reason I mentioned above. And a single stage is really handy for any side jobs or lower volume cartridge loading duties. For example I don't shoot enough .44Mag to justify buying the conversion kit for my Dillon. I just load that ammo on my single stage. So having both really compliments each other. And going with the single stage first keeps the cost down until later on. Or you may find that you simply don't need to move up to a progressive.
Good post!
Someone had a good sig line, quality, fast, cheap only pick 2. So true. If I factored in what I could spend time wise a week for reloading, honestly would fit into the 30 min time frame a day (max, and I believe I would be stretching it here! that would mainly be made up by staying up a bit later! and that would need to include set up and tear down) We all have jam packed lives! My spare time really fits into priorities first then leisure after!
I'll give a bit of a break down of what I currently shoot.
about 500 .45acp
1,500 9mm
500 .308
a whack of .22
Looking at a .40, but that will be sometime
Thats what I am doing now. The limiting factor really is ammo currently. I usually buy a case of 500 9mm at a time, and individual boxes of the others. So about $750 for .308, $350 9mm $400 for .45ACP. In all honesty, I would like to take what I am currently spending, and increase the value into cost per round. For 9mm and .45 I would be able to use cast projectiles as I do have a cheap source (a buddy has thousands made up he will never get through). So the possible numbers made would increase significantly.
So with roughly a budget of $1,500, that needs to include all supplies and press. Option of doubling that up for this year is out of the question. Using the online cost per round calculator, it is a no brainer to get into reloading.
Now I turn back with another question to all of you! If you had $1,500 to spend on COMPLETE set up (right down to tumbler, and case lube (PS I plan on making my own wet tumbler, I have everything needed in my garage, time restraints but I can get this done)) and all supplies, where you time is more valuable than shooting 0.00001 MOA 3 miles away, what would you buy and do? no deviation from those parameters.
AhGGGG the struggle to have a cheap sport
Someone had a good sig line, quality, fast, cheap only pick 2. So true. If I factored in what I could spend time wise a week for reloading, honestly would fit into the 30 min time frame a day (max, and I believe I would be stretching it here! that would mainly be made up by staying up a bit later! and that would need to include set up and tear down) We all have jam packed lives! My spare time really fits into priorities first then leisure after!
I'll give a bit of a break down of what I currently shoot.
about 500 .45acp
1,500 9mm
500 .308
a whack of .22
Looking at a .40, but that will be sometime
Thats what I am doing now. The limiting factor really is ammo currently. I usually buy a case of 500 9mm at a time, and individual boxes of the others. So about $750 for .308, $350 9mm $400 for .45ACP. In all honesty, I would like to take what I am currently spending, and increase the value into cost per round. For 9mm and .45 I would be able to use cast projectiles as I do have a cheap source (a buddy has thousands made up he will never get through). So the possible numbers made would increase significantly.
So with roughly a budget of $1,500, that needs to include all supplies and press. Option of doubling that up for this year is out of the question. Using the online cost per round calculator, it is a no brainer to get into reloading.
Now I turn back with another question to all of you! If you had $1,500 to spend on COMPLETE set up (right down to tumbler, and case lube (PS I plan on making my own wet tumbler, I have everything needed in my garage, time restraints but I can get this done)) and all supplies, where you time is more valuable than shooting 0.00001 MOA 3 miles away, what would you buy and do? no deviation from those parameters.
AhGGGG the struggle to have a cheap sport
Just concentrate on getting a good press and dies. Add the rest later. For lube, the cheap and easy way is isopropanol and lanolin oil. For cleaning brass, all I do is use a bucket with watertight lid, laundry detergent, and just let it soak for a while, shaking every so often (or just use your hands to agitate the brass). Rinse in a colander and then bake in the oven at the lowest setting it can do. Cheap and easy.
BTW, I spent way less than $1500 for my initial setup, but I went with a Lee turret press since I figured I wasn't going to load enough to justify a progressive, but more than enough that I figured a single press would drive me crazy.
BTW, I spent way less than $1500 for my initial setup, but I went with a Lee turret press since I figured I wasn't going to load enough to justify a progressive, but more than enough that I figured a single press would drive me crazy.
I just started handloading......got a lee hand press, funnel, scoop kit, hand primer, case tray, etc. and spent about $150 all said. Bucket of powder and primers another $60. I shoot mainly 8mm mauser, Swiss, 8x56 and 762x54, figure the gear will pay for itself by the end of the summer. It's a fun hobby, makes you very aware of the performance of your own guns. My advice is to get a teacher....I could only go so far reading the books and watching the Youtube vids. I was lucky and had an experienced reloading sit me down for a few hours and go over all the gear and then get me to reload various calibers and then troubleshoot.
My rough estimate for just the components for that amount of shooting is well over $500 alone and that doesn't include brass cost. Also that is if you can find them locally.
You mention time issues. Reloading my not be for you right now as it eats up alot of it. I think you should just keep shooting for now and save your brass for now.
Is this per year or per month (if it is weekly, you can surely afford a progressive press)?
I think you can get everything you need within your budget. In terms of time, when I am busy, I leave my press setup for say 9mm and then load in time that would be otherwise wasted (i.e. waiting for the kids or wife to get ready). At the end of the week its surprising how many rounds you've made - often I have more than I can shoot in my allotted time at the range.
If you think about it, one 500 round case of 9mm will almost get you into a new press and the savings will add up quickly (or not, since you're going to shoot more). Saving $0.35+ per round of 45 ACP and more for 308 would feel really nice I bet.
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BattleRife
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My experience is that the retention ratio of reloading as a hobby is well under 50%, maybe 1 in 3. So of all the people who buy the gear with the intent of producing their own ammunition, after a couple of years less than half are still interested. A shocking number never load a single cartridge. My opinion is that it would be unwise to start the hobby with top end equipment, unless you are quite wealthy. Starting with a group ownership plan when the drop out rate is as high as it is will likely breed resentment or have one lucky individual end up with a bunch of gear he didn't pay much for.
I have a Hornady progressive, but I still have most of my Lee gear I started with when I was 15. The items that are gone were not sold or thrown away, they were given to others who were considering getting into reloading. I will recommend to anyone and everyone to start their reloading career with Lee equipment and to keep their budget lean until they are sure they know what they want and they know they will stick with it.
I have a Hornady progressive, but I still have most of my Lee gear I started with when I was 15. The items that are gone were not sold or thrown away, they were given to others who were considering getting into reloading. I will recommend to anyone and everyone to start their reloading career with Lee equipment and to keep their budget lean until they are sure they know what they want and they know they will stick with it.
I feel the same way. Ever since kindergarten I didn't like to share, and it was noted that I didn't play well with others.
$1500 budget I would be looking at Dillon 550b for a press. Get a decent balance beam scale like 505 RCBS. Scale check weights, case prep tools and other little stuff. Can get used dies that are still good.
Weigh charges for rifle rounds and use press like a single stage. Use powder measure for pistol rounds, change out dies to change calibers. Do one caliber and reload then change out dies and reset powder measure. It will be a pain to swap out dies and reset measure but you won't spend any extra . When you don't want to do that anymore get a extra tool head and powder measure.
You will pay for your costs quick. 45 not cheap to shoot. If you use cast your costs will go down.
Weigh charges for rifle rounds and use press like a single stage. Use powder measure for pistol rounds, change out dies to change calibers. Do one caliber and reload then change out dies and reset powder measure. It will be a pain to swap out dies and reset measure but you won't spend any extra . When you don't want to do that anymore get a extra tool head and powder measure.
You will pay for your costs quick. 45 not cheap to shoot. If you use cast your costs will go down.
Sclifford, I can't offer much in terms of the benefits of high end equipment but I'll put in a couple of cents of my experiences.
Sharing with friends or family always ends up in a sh^& show. From business to family it doesn't matter. Start out with what's affordable for you only. The main piece of equipment from a track hoe loader to AutoCAD drafting software shared between as little as 2 persons leads to rough times. In business it's financial gain or loss, with friends and family its the inconvenience leading to a blow up at some sort of family function with totally irrational behavior. Personally speaking from experience...I wouldn't do it. The money spent to purchase the equipment is small compared to good friendships.
However if you really want to make this happen...a couple of things....from me to you
...- If you want to share something regarding reloading, make it accessories and not critical path to loading ammunition. ie annealer, SS tumbler. A reloading press is always something someone wants to use and wants use on their own terms and schedule. Each person in the group purchasing X machine (other than a press) that the other won't have to purchase is a good place to start.
- Set up the expensive press like a business, or a collection of equipment knowing at the start whether its based on cost recovery or more than that. Sounds far fetched but an "entry point" and "exit point" is the basis for any business plan and sets scope and parameters. It will even provide opportunities to provide returns while you or your friends aren't using it...the press or whatever equipment will never be yours, and you won't feel attached if something f's up. (it's business after all) Example: 3 persons purchase a press for 3 years lifespan. X amount of dollars for maintenance/repairs. Re evaluate after that. A plan to go on for years never works. Reasonably firm scheduling for usage will provide the opportunity for others to use for fees, when the primary partners have allocated their time to fit their needs. Pending on the situation, farming out may be lucrative. The minor problem is location for all to use at what ever time desired. You figure that out and you have a winner.
- lastly, if you incorporate the business model of thinking and execution, you (or your partners) may go down a path that leads to something different for each one of you. A small scope business like this where you and your partners won't loose your shirt, and who knows what may occur in the future.
You have posed the concept of rental by others. If its not available make it happen yourself and pm me on how it turns out.Good luck!
Regards
RonR
My first question is why do you want such an elaborate press??
You can easily make up the same quality or better ammo in a single stage or turret manual press. A decent steel frame press would be my first choice and there are a lot of good used units to be found at gun shows and even some gun shops. Put an ad in the EE for the press and dies/shell head holders you need. IMHO for under $300 you can be set up for multiple cartridges as well as you don't have to worry about someone changing everything when you aren't present.
A press like the Dillon 650 is fine if you shoot a lot but for the amount most shoot, way beyond their needs.
For the money you would spend on a single stage or turret press and accessories you could easily, depending on cartridges, load anywhere of several hundred to several thousand rounds. for the same price as the bare Dillon press.
Mind you, if you're a social animal and really like to have people around you then maybe a group buy "might" be suitable. The thing is who is going to be in possession of it? When someone moves do the rest of you buy out his/her share?? Who is going to clean up the mess?
There are a few shops that have presses for their customers to use to try out different types and for those that just don't have room to set up or just can't afford the equipment.
Del Selin's in Vernon is one of those shops.
You can easily make up the same quality or better ammo in a single stage or turret manual press. A decent steel frame press would be my first choice and there are a lot of good used units to be found at gun shows and even some gun shops. Put an ad in the EE for the press and dies/shell head holders you need. IMHO for under $300 you can be set up for multiple cartridges as well as you don't have to worry about someone changing everything when you aren't present.
A press like the Dillon 650 is fine if you shoot a lot but for the amount most shoot, way beyond their needs.
For the money you would spend on a single stage or turret press and accessories you could easily, depending on cartridges, load anywhere of several hundred to several thousand rounds. for the same price as the bare Dillon press.
Mind you, if you're a social animal and really like to have people around you then maybe a group buy "might" be suitable. The thing is who is going to be in possession of it? When someone moves do the rest of you buy out his/her share?? Who is going to clean up the mess?
There are a few shops that have presses for their customers to use to try out different types and for those that just don't have room to set up or just can't afford the equipment.
Del Selin's in Vernon is one of those shops.
This is like sharing a car with 1 or 2 friends. Just a bad idea, and for what gain really? Splitting up the pain of $1500? Not worth the complexity whatsoever . There will be issues, conflicts etc. You're on vacation and your buddy needs to come over and load 200 rounds of 9mm...
Reloading equipment is kinda personal, you don't want anyone to mess with it, you'll learn it in and out and form a personal relationship. At night, you'll head over to the basement or garage, caress and admire it and know that it belongs to you, and you alone....
Buy a single stage or Turret press that does not produce ammo as fast, that way, it'll sit around going nothing for less time, and you'll save a bunch of money on the setup costs.
Reloading equipment is kinda personal, you don't want anyone to mess with it, you'll learn it in and out and form a personal relationship. At night, you'll head over to the basement or garage, caress and admire it and know that it belongs to you, and you alone....
Buy a single stage or Turret press that does not produce ammo as fast, that way, it'll sit around going nothing for less time, and you'll save a bunch of money on the setup costs.
For an elaborate press, the main reason was for time management purposes; always wish there were more hours in a day! I am self employed, so that gives me a little flexibility, but still means that I don't follow the clock and sometimes meet clients after regular hours! My youngest (4 years old) has a still non diagnosed intestinal problems that requires regular trips every few months to the IWK hospital 6 hour drive away (he weighs less than 30Lbs, looks like he is 2, and without a shirt on, looks like a child from Africa from those charity commercials). Add in times when he gets sicker, we end up in the hospital with him generally for a week at a time. Last year he was blocked up, needed 3 enigmas (adult doses) and started to turn into septic shock (and that hospital is 45 mins away). Last week was our towns festival. They had a bistro tent set up and we went for supper and to listen to the local artists play music. The man who does most of the blood work at the hospital was on stage playing guitar and singing. We had to leave because my son saw him on stage and would not stop uncontrollably crying because he thought he was going to have more blood work!
My oldest (8) has ADHD mixed with mild epilepsy that can cause outbursts which leads to him either getting suspended from school/ daycare. Including all this week where I have had to bring him each day with me to my office. Throw in 2 nights a week baseball and one night soccer that I help coach for them, and regular honey-do list around the house, spare time is very much a luxury! Having said all that, we all face challenges, all have limiting factors, I still would not change much in my day to day affairs! At the end of the day, I am happy with what I could accomplish and only can wish for health!
I would absolutely love for a place that offered a spot as mentioned above to rent equipment. If there was such a place near me, that would definitely be what I would prefer! From all the advice, I will have to weigh in all the options stated. A lot of people are suggesting a small cheap single stage press with no sharing. Keeps it budget sensitive and no hassles. I guess an option would be to pump out as much as I could in stages. A few days depriming, and move down the line when possible. I don't shoot a lot currently, the goal though is to increase those numbers by reloading to keep it budget friendly.
I need time and budget friendly, things that usually do not go together, so that is the solution I need to find. From the consensus here, I am leaning towards a cheaper single stage, and do what I can with the time I have to spare! If I could get a few hundred made up each month, that would at least make it worthwhile!
This is like sharing a car with 1 or 2 friends. Just a bad idea, and for what gain really? Splitting up the pain of $1500? Not worth the complexity whatsoever . There will be issues, conflicts etc. You're on vacation and your buddy needs to come over and load 200 rounds of 9mm...
Reloading equipment is kinda personal, you don't want anyone to mess with it, you'll learn it in and out and form a personal relationship. At night, you'll head over to the basement or garage, caress and admire it and know that it belongs to you, and you alone....
Buy a single stage or Turret press that does not produce ammo as fast, that way, it'll sit around going nothing for less time, and you'll save a bunch of money on the setup costs.
The only reason I tossed up this idea, is get the absolute best product out there, share the costs, manage the time spent better, and not have something sitting around that is idle most of the time. In theory, I think it is a great idea, but after hearing more info here, could be problematic!
