Sheep Changes Coming

sheephunter said:
I see where you are going but Tempest indicated it was a good zone for trophy quality sheep and the records just don't bear that out. There was a brief blip of a couple really good rams taken and then nothing. Talk to the guys who really hunt 400, not just drive the front ranges and they are disappointed with the trophy quality and constantly see giant rams that will never be legal. It's the same fast growing young rams that are getting killed at full curl as were at 4/5 but a year later. Nothing has changed other than we've taken a lot of really good trophies out of the harvest.
Click to expand...

Yah yah... I hunt that zone - have been in the back and can tell you guys like tempest, Patty spend more time than most there. They may even wear out a set of boots in the off season in the back. Funny we have never run into you in the back there, considering you seem to know so much about it.

There are large 4/5 rams - have been well withing gun range of book rams that don't meet the minimum length, and I am OK with that. There are also tanks in there. Some use the park to their advantage, some get shot.

I hear of book rams coming out of that dinky little zone every year. both from the fronts and by the guys "really hunting" in the back...
 
norskie said:
I hear of book rams coming out of that dinky little zone every year. both from the fronts and by the guys "really hunting" in the back...
Click to expand...

Now that is hilarious.....Funny they never show up at any of the horn scorings or in Boone and Crockett. Talk of book rams is cheap...the proof is in the pudding and your pudding is pretty thin. The fact is that there aren't book rams coming out of 400 "every" year. There have been a couple undoubtedly but far less book rams than people want to believe. As they say in Missouri....."show me"
 
sheephunter said:
Now that is hilarious.....Funny they never show up at any of the horn scorings or in Boone and Crockett. Talk of book rams is cheap...the proof is in the pudding and your pudding is pretty thin. The fact is that there aren't book rams coming out of 400 "every" year. There have been a couple undoubtedly but far less book rams than people want to believe. As they say in Missouri....."show me"
Click to expand...

Not everyone takes their horns in to such events - or bothers to even tape them anymore. I know a guy down south who has killed several such rams.

I have seen a pic of a book ram from there this year - funny thing I haven't seem it all over the internet. For that I respect the hunter. Wish more guys could get that frame of mind and hop off the "hype" train driven by the sponges that live off promoting the size matters train.





I for one haven't thrown a tape on a critter or entered it at any horn scoring in the last 10 years despite the potential to win prizes and accolades. I will leave that to guys that need that.
 
norskie said:
Not everyone takes their horns in to such events - or bothers to even tape them anymore. I know a guy down south who has killed several such rams.

I have seen a pic of a book ram from there this year - funny thing I haven't seem it all over the internet. For that I respect the hunter. Wish more guys could get that frame of mind and hop off the "hype" train driven by the sponges that live off promoting the size matters train.





I for one haven't thrown a tape on a critter or entered it at any horn scoring in the last 10 years despite the potential to win prizes and accolades. I will leave that to guys that need that.
Click to expand...

So you just proved my point that there aren't "book" rams taken each year in WMU400. It's easy to say an unscored ram is book but it's often much more difficult when the tape measure comes out. I suspect there are guys all over the province that haven't had rams scored but if you are attempting to have a fact-based discussion regarding trophy quality, including them in the discussion without some sort of proof what they score is pointless. For a ram to be a "book" ram....he must be entered in the "book". Speculating about some rams and going off hearsay adds little to the discussion. I saw the pictures of that ram from this year and yes it is a dandy. Nice to see. Talk of "book" rams is pretty common and it's something all hunters just let slide off their tongues but when we start looking at how many rams actually make "book", it's a pretty exclusive club. For a guy like you that's such a stickler for the facts I was surprised at your comment. There clearly aren't book rams taken every year in 400....real or imagined. I doubt any WMU could boast that and there are many with far more numerous "book" entries than 400.
 
Its been consistent since the full curl rule - and the waiting period when rams started getting harvested. I guess to quantify I should have said rams that in my opinion were taped (and some that have been but not entered) would make the book. So its a universally used term to a recognized size - most guys would get that at the coffee shop, even without having viewed 10's of thousands of rams.

If you want to argue the semantics that's up to you.
 
Last edited:
sheephunter said:
Show me one from 2013.
Click to expand...

I can't/won't share pics of sheep that aren't mine. I have seen a pic of one that is imho right there. Just checked my phone and don't have it anymore. Remember it well cause we razzed the crap out of a buddy that spends most of his time in that basin. And I never saw it at willow valley.
 
norskie said:
I can't/won't share pics of sheep that aren't mine. I have seen a pic of one that is imho right there. Just checked my phone and don't have it anymore. Remember it well cause we razzed the crap out of a buddy that spends most of his time in that basin. And I never saw it at willow valley.
Click to expand...


LOL...okay....

The fact is that there have been 325 rams from Alberta entered in the all-time book since 1830. The fact is that there have been none entered in the book some years from the entire province so to say that 400 produces one every year is ridiculous. I picked 2013 because there were no hunter-killed rams entered in the all-time book that year from all of Alberta. I'm done with this vein of this discussion.
 
sheephunter said:
LOL...okay....

The fact is that there have been 349 rams from Alberta entered in the book since 1830. The fact is that there have been none entered in the book some years from the entire province so to say that 400 produces one every year is ridiculous. I picked 2013 because there were no hunter-killed rams entered in the all-time book that year from all of Alberta. I'm done with this vein of this discussion.
Click to expand...

So if a ram was killed that was large and capable of being entered but wasn't it didn't happen....

And maybe it was maybe it wasn't - not guaranteeing anything. And despite what you might think from what you read - we know what we see from actually being there. I can't speak to sheep populations in many parts of the Province, cause I have only hunted a half dozen zones. If you don't want to believe it that's fine, but don't suggest you might know what type of regulation might best suit an area based on your exclusive knowledge.

I guess I should thank you Sheephunter - you have helped me decide that the full curl rule may just be the way to go.
 
sheephunter said:
I think you're smart enough to see the trend Norskie....let's move along.
Click to expand...

The trend I see is as long as guys get so hung up on trophy quality, book heads and measurements there will always be a desire to regulate the opportunity so they can achieve it.

Thanks for your help in illustrating that.

I just want to have the opportunity to go out hunting, have a opportunity to harvest a sheep (doesn't even have to be a good opportunity), spend some time in the neatest country around and perhaps share it with family and friends. The success is the hunt, not the kill.
 
Last edited:
norskie said:
The trend I see is as long as guys get so hung up on trophy quality, book heads and measurements there will always be a desire to regulate the opportunity so they can achieve it.

Thanks for your help in illustrating that.

I just want to have the opportunity to go out hunting, have a opportunity to harvest a sheep (doesn't even have to be a good one), spend some time in the neatest country around and perhaps share it with family and friends. The success is the hunt, not the kill.
Click to expand...

Glad I could help. That's been the point I've been making all along too and unless ESRD can make a management argument for full curl.....why would you support it? It greatly reduces your opportunity and every other hunter that isn't hung up on trophy quality to harvest a sheep.
 
Last edited:
is there really really a difference between a thin or a big horn on the growing that make harder the shooting of a trophy.

i wish myself we can shoot ewe or lamb or non trophy but this is not what FNAWS and all experts are telling and directing us ....

because in Yukon seems it is not a problem for a trophy hunter to get a full curl ....
 
medvedqc said:
is there really really a difference between a thin or a big horn on the growing that make harder the shooting of a trophy.

i wish myself we can shoot ewe or lamb or non trophy but this is not what FNAWS and all experts are telling and directing us ....

because in Yukon seems it is not a problem for a trophy hunter to get a full curl ....
Click to expand...

There is a lot of difference in the configuration of horn growth between the two plus bighorns broom much more commonly than thinhorns. As thinhorns are easy to field age, you can still shoot broomed rams as long as they are 8 years of age. Field aging bighorns is much more difficult and hasn't worked out well in BC where they tried it. A large percentage of bighorns broom and keep brooming and will never be legal under a full-curl regulation. There are also many that just don't have the horn shape to achieve full-curl....especially in southern parts of the province.
 
Tempest said:
What year did 438 go on draw?
Click to expand...

WMU438 itself is not on draw...it is a general season like the remainder of the province. There are three additional November seasons in a portion of 438 though. If I remember correctly the first November seasons were in 2006.
 
Is it safe to say the records from Luscar Mt., Sphinx Crk, Whitehorse, Cadomin, Leyland since 2006 are a little tainted in this trophy selection?

Wow looking at those records that whole area screws up the dynamics for the whole province when it comes to the book.
 
Tempest said:
Is it safe to say the records from Luscar Mt., Sphinx Crk, Whitehorse, Cadomin, Leyland since 2006 are a little tainted in this trophy selection?

Wow looking at those records that whole area screws up the dynamics for the whole province when it comes to the book.
Click to expand...

Actually Whitehorse is outside the November seasons boudary but I guess it would be easy enough to exclude the November entries of those within the November boundaries in the database when comparing WMUs. A person should then likely exclude the MSL rams too. But even with its illustrious record, it doesn't produce book rams every year. If anything it really illustrates just how much of an effect mother nature has on trophy quality. For those of us old enough, we remember the dismal years after the winters of 1996 and 1997 too. But as typically happens, we did see a slight spike in trophy rams a few years later and then it levels out again as sheep populations increase. I suspect that's what we are seeing this year in some WMUs after the winters of 2010 and 2012. I suspect that's what we saw as populations rebounded in 400 too. Looking at trends for 10,15,20 or even 50 years doesn't always tell the entire story. I doubt we will ever see the glory years of Cadomin again but I'm sure it will bounce back to some degree.
 
Last edited:
Any way I have up to 2012. The book shows 3 out of 97 from 400. 3%. If you take out the mines its around 54 (some of the record locations I'm not that familiar with) so around 5 or 6%.

I do know of 3 that are not in the book plus this thing that was shot early this year (don't know a score on it but it's a pig). One of the three was at Willow Valley if memory serves but didn't get scored (norskie might remember) Plus you always hear of others around the campfire but that happens everywhere and I suspect there are rams across the province that could make it that are not listed such is life.

But I do know that if we want to talk trophy the average score in 400 would be there with any zone.

I hear this stuff about big mature rams that won't ever make full. Its true they are out there but it isn't like it's a majority of them and I doubt its even 10%. I don't have a problem with that cool to see and stabilizing for the herd. If herd health is good maybe an extra season can be added to go get some of those, can't do that now.

Anyway long night and day and I'm too punchy to add much. If something is going to be done I hope its full curl and not a draw. I hope they close down more roads into sheep country, I hope a lot of fires start by natural causes on the edge of sheep ranges and I hope I live long enough to get my 180 (solo from 400) :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom