Sheep Changes Coming
- Thread starter sheephunter
- Start date
I do agree with you and I think that comment was over the top. But, do you really think he will give an apology? LOL!
Crazy Davey,
thanks for that.
that sum up everything and it is not only for Albertans.
Phil
- Location
- AB foothills
Tempest gave you an explanation, plain as day. I know you like to argue about almost everything but stop trying to turn this into something it is not. You put anyone who disagrees with you on you ignore list, take them off, that way you can keep up with the conversation if you want to stay in it.
A group of concerned resident hunters went to the local biologist to try and get some answers on this issue, I couldn't make it but I am pretty sure they received the information and answers to the questions they had on this issue. Is this not an acceptable way to deal with issues like this? Or are you just upset because someone followed the proper channels to get answers to what the future plan for our sheep is? Or, maybe your just upset because you and your buddies weren't invited...
Maybe anyone concerned about the future of Alberta sheep hunting should contact you, APOS and WSFA first before asking any questions, LOL!
You should have a meeting with the Alberta Biologists as well instead of having private meetings in Reno looking for anything possible to disprove what our local biologists are saying.
I do agree with you and I think that comment was over the top. But, do you really think he will give an apology? LOL!
This must have been in Western Sportsman??? As the writer did say it was the #1 outdoor magazine is Canada.
Jon
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- Location
- AB foothills
I have seen a list of who was there, I am sure he has as well and he could get everything he is looking for easily.
It is easier for Sheephunter to play his "Cloak and dagger" & "Smoke and mirrors" routine, we have seen it time and time again. It is easier for him to twist words and play mind games to try and push his personal opinion and agenda.
Absolutely meeting with local bios is a great idea. Many such meeting are being held across the province, albeit in a more transparent manner. Regardless, I couldn't have gone had I been invited and it sounds like there was good representation from the AGMAG groups. It's nice to see people gathering info. My concern was having someone say they'd seen the management plan......not heard a few snippets from it in a presentation. I'd still be interested in hearing Patty's explanation of what he "saw".
Now who sounds like they are pouting because they weren't invited to a "private" meeting in Reno....LMAO. Details were only posted on the Wild Sheep website, Facebook page and emailed to their membership and posted on large signs at the convention. Ya, it was a closed affair. How was the open southern meeting publicized again
The U.S. bios definitely aren't out to disprove anything but are just willing to help the AGMAG groups make sense out of ESRD's data. Why are some people so concerned about having an educated/unbiased set of eyes look the data over? Is there something to hide?
I remember a few years ago there was a group concerned that hunters were being sold out in private meetings, by people having having drinks with government employee and getting early looks at documents and not wanting independent review of documents. I wonder where that group is now?
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Due to the nature of the creatures we are talking about and the habitat they live in, I doubt that many of those questions can be answered with absolute certainty. We are talking a pretty small population of animals here in Alberta, where even missing an animal or two in a given Management Area count can skew the numbers, but nothing can be done to guarantee absolute 100% accuracy. It's the nature of the beast and mountains. Even if we as a province had the time, money and will to throw at this... And other than the group of nuts here, no one else in the province really cares... So maybe we have to except the counts, such as they are, and look to trends to make our best decision possible...
However, there can be no argument that Alberta's sheep are under more pressure than they were even 10 years ago. One big downside to our population growth. Not only from hunters, but Alberta's sheep are under more pressure than ever. Full curl rules allow the sheep to live longer. Simple as that.
Are there things that need addressing, other than just hunter control? Absolutely! Habitat, predators, etc... Will those be addressed? Likely not in the short term, unfortunately. Again, that political will thing...
Look, I belong to the demographic probably most likely to suffer from the proposed change to full curl- I'm not old, but I'm a guy with lots of mountain and work miles on his body, shelf life with the end in sight, and no sheep under my belt yet- however, I'll gladly give up my chance at a 'easier' sheep for the long term good of the animal and viability of the hunt. I'd fight the draw only option till I died, but full curl would still allow us to wander around looking every year. And that's what I really care about. Spending time in sheep country... I couldn't care less if it takes me a few more years to find the right ram...
LOL...personal agenda. It seems to be the consensus among the AGMAG groups and the majority of sheep hunters.....I'm just following the other sheep
Your view of my world is definitely amusing.
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So here is something to consider and it is just me looking into a crystal ball but I'm far from the only one thinking this is possible.
ESRD will push these changes.
APOS will sue based on poor science
ESRD will back down and change effected WMUs to 408 south
ESRD, concerned about additional pressure in north will shorten resident season a week or two
AGMAG groups will fight changes in south but ESRD will force them through.
Non residents will lose no opportunity
Residents will lose considerably opportunity
A small group of hunters in Lethbridge will celebrate their victory while other Alberta resident hunters mourn the loss of opportunity based on a flawed genetic harm theory.
ESRD will push these changes.
APOS will sue based on poor science
ESRD will back down and change effected WMUs to 408 south
ESRD, concerned about additional pressure in north will shorten resident season a week or two
AGMAG groups will fight changes in south but ESRD will force them through.
Non residents will lose no opportunity
Residents will lose considerably opportunity
A small group of hunters in Lethbridge will celebrate their victory while other Alberta resident hunters mourn the loss of opportunity based on a flawed genetic harm theory.
Some likely not but many could easily be....some in a study already being conducted but the Government seems unwilling to wait for the results despite no need for immediate change to regulations.
Good comments, well worth taking to heart, its with a great deal of embarrassment that I find myself being one of the "nuts", my apologies for my part in the demise of this thread.
The facts to me seem to be available to anyone interested in finding them and without a doubt they will be open to criticism and perhaps even adjustments, I highly doubt a consensus will be made on this issue but I have know doubt that those moving forward with this change have the best intentions for both the sheep herd and the hunters of this province.
The only people on the ignore list are those unable to carry on a civil discussion without resorting to personal attacks...I actually enjoy an educated and respectful discussion where someone has an educated view contrary to mine. It's how I learn. Unfortunately the art of respectful debate is somewhat lost in the anonymity of the internet and occasionally I find myself getting drug down to the lowest level and rather than embarrassing myself like that, it's easier to ignore those that want to take the discussion there. Count the number of posts in this thread that have zero to do with the sheep changes being discussed and I think you'll get what I mean. Posts from you and I are are likely found in that mire of crap as well and for that I apologize...it does little to further one's level of knowledge regarding the subject being discussed. I've tried to take a few of the discussions on here to PM rather than airing dirty laundry but unfortunately, some thrive on the attention and others thrive on the gang mentality perpetrated in this thread. If anyone on the ignore list really wants to have a discussion with me, my email addy is pretty easy to find. Now let's get back to discussing the merits and pitfalls of the proposed sheep changes.... It's an important issue that affects us all. Perhaps you could help ensure things stay on track in this important discussion.
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- Location
- AB foothills
Absolutely meeting with local bios is a great idea. Many such meeting are being held across the province, albeit in a more transparent manner. Regardless, I couldn't have gone had I been invited and it sounds like there was good representation from the AGMAG groups. It's nice to see people gathering info. My concern was having someone say they'd seen the management plan......not heard a few snippets from it in a presentation. I'd still be interested in hearing Patty's explanation of what he "saw".
Now who sounds like they are pouting because they weren't invited to a "private" meeting in Reno....LMAO. Details were only posted on the Wild Sheep website, Facebook page and emailed to their membership and posted on large signs at the convention. Ya, it was a closed affair. How was the open southern meeting publicized again
The U.S. bios definitely aren't out to disprove anything but are just willing to help the AGMAG groups make sense out of ESRD's data. Why are some people so concerned about having an educated/unbiased set of eyes look the data over? Is there something to hide?
I remember a few years ago there was a group concerned that hunters were being sold out in private meetings, by people having having drinks with government employee and getting early looks at documents and not wanting independent review of documents. I wonder where that group is now?
Are you done editing now? That was eleven times so far. Pretty hard to follow your posts when you keep changing them, over and over and over...
Sorry I missed addressing a few of your concerns earlier and added them....yup....all done now.
Who is this study run or sponsored by? What if they did wait to make the change and this study confirmed the government biologists' theories? Would you accept the change then?
It's a government bio conducting the study. Funding has come from a variety of sources. I'd rather they didn't wait till it was done to make the change. I'd rather they waited till it was done and add the data to the pool along with the collection of some other badly needed data to decide if changes were needed at all. This study could definitely shed some light on how wide sweeping the sync effect from Cadomin is and whether it accounts for some of the sub 5% carry over numbers and it could shed some light on whether we are really seeing decreasing horn size and increasing age. I'm all for making change if required...I'm just not convinced the current data supports change....I'm definitely not convinced hunters are causing genetic harm to our sheep herds. Neither is the bulk of the scientific community yet that theory is what the change is based entirely on. I'm not certain why the rush to make change....it's not like the sheep population will crash in the next few years or even change if we don't. Why not wait for data?
Very true, ideally rams should be harvested by age but that's too difficult to put into practice. As far as personal goals go that's not an easy one with sheep, too many guys on the mountain to think that a ram is going to get much past legal minimum.
The Bio mentioned they hoped to get the age of harvest up to around 8 years of age.
Data from wmu 400 showed the average age of harvest went up from 5.9 years (prior to full curl rule) up to 7.4 years old after the full curl rule was adopted.
Data from wmu 400 showed the average age of harvest went up from 5.9 years (prior to full curl rule) up to 7.4 years old after the full curl rule was adopted.
Well the Alberta average for rams harvested is 7.5 years old....so we are already there. I was fortunate enough to be on two successful sheep hunts last year. The first ram was 8.5 years old and 3 inches legal on the one side, broomed back to the point of barely legal on the other. The second ram was 7.5 years old. Had both lamb tips and was 1.5 inches legal. Neither ram was even close to full curl yet any sheep hunter would be proud of a mature ram like that.
