Shootin Milsurps - Groups?

NAA

NAA

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Okay milsurp guys... when shootin' your favourite relics, with iron sites of course, what do you consider "good groups" say at 100 yards on something like a 10" paper plate sized target?

I've have a couple No. 4's and a Model 38 Swede but I really haven't put them thru the paces. Startin' to get "a thing" for mil-surps, as "shooters" and potentially looking at stuff in say 7x57 as well as 8x57.

Just wondered what everyone else was happy with when they shoot their "toys"... ;)
 
First sentence in the military skill at arms book

"Your weapons are given you to KILL the enemy."

Nothing in that sentence says anything about shooting tight little groups in paper.;)
 
NAA:

+1 for what John said!!

I get about 1.5 Moa at 100 yards with my Norinco M-14 with a 3.5X10 Leupold. My M1 Garand with get me 2.5 - 3 Moa at 100( both the M1 and M14 are handloaded) and a M44 Mosin Nagant is around 5 Moa. I also have a "Brit" that has 2 rifling in the barrel and with open sights and factory ammo I have shot 2.5 Moa 5 shot groups.

Accuracy will depend on the shape of the gun and the loose nut behind the wheel!!!

Sometime you may get lucky and get a real shooter, I have a buddy of mine that has an Isreili made Mauser in .308 and when he shot it open sights it went 1.25 Moa so he did the work and mounted a 6.5 x 20 Leupold on it and with good handloads that Damn thing is a .4 Moa Gun!!!!

Hope this helps, just my $.02
 
I don't buy this inaccurate Milsurp idea at all.

And that somehow a battle rifle is meant to be less accurate so it can Kill the enemy...that makes zero sense at all. :rolleyes:

And one look at the Bisley scores since WW2 shows what an Enfield can do.
 
Well the black circle on these targets is 8" and the groups are abotu 2.5" or so.

DSC03156.jpg


DSC03155.jpg


Longbranch with reloads...
 
quote : Calum ,
"And one look at the Bisley scores since WW2 shows what an Enfield can do."
Ubetcha !
The proof is recorded in black and white.
When I bring my Enfields to a shootout with a group of friends , I see alot of longfaces and fellas trying to figure out whats wrong with their $1000+ moose/deer rifles....gottaluvit :D .
I hunt with a '43 No4 Longbranch ( 1.5 MOA ) . Accuracy is a MUST , I'm getting too old to chase down a wounded Whitetail .
I'm currently setting up a 1916 BSA ShtLE ( sub 3.0 MOA sporter , ironsights ) which I fitted into Fulton Regulated stocks . I'll likely scope it too.
...we'll see how that turns out ;)

quote : apapro
"Accuracy will depend on the shape of the gun and the loose nut behind the wheel!!!"

There's the good , bad and ugly with any milsurp.
The main reason why I can outshoot my buds is because I "practice".
I know the rifles which I shoot most , and what fodder they like best.
 
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John Sukey said:
"Your weapons are given you to KILL the enemy."

Nothing in that sentence says anything about shooting tight little groups in paper.;)
Click to expand...

Hi John - I get your point... but I didn't start my thread to talk about "tight little groups"... what I want to know is what milsurp shooters using iron sites consider a good practical grouping when they have acquired a new toy.

For example, say you can keep five shots on a 10" paper plate at 100 yards. Maybe the group is 3" or 5" or 7" etc. I guess it depends, individual to individual as to what one considers an "acceptable group" for a given rifle/ammo combo.

But say, someone acquires a milsurp bolt action & it produces a wider pattern at 100 yards or maybe doesn't even put any of the shots on that circle.

I'm looking to hear from milsurp shooters, particularly the bolt action guys, to see what they are shooting [i.e. rifle/ammo combo] what they are shooting at [paper pie plates, sighting in targets, etc] and what groups they are getting & what groups they are expecting to get [i.e. if loading for that rifle & working up a load]

That is the kind of discussion I'm looking to read in this thread.
 
Well - Most milsurp rifles are limited by the short radius iron sights. A good shooter would be hard pressed to get better than 3 in at 100 y - with tuned handloads.
Some milsurps have peep sights - this allows the prospect of smaller groups, but still limits the ultimate accuracy of the rifle. I've gotten down to 2 in with good ammo, with the odd lucky group down to 1 1/2 in.
I did an interesting experiment years ago. I threw an S+K Instamount and scope on my Winchester P-14 that was known to shoot well. With tuned loads ( H150 SP and RE15) I was able to get cloverleaf groups at 100 y. Went back to iron sights, group size went up to approx 2 in.
I've repeated this experiment several times over the years, as I set up my hunting rifles in a similar manner - tune with scope, the return to peep sights. Unfortunately, my 48 year old eyes now tend to let me down when shooting irons.
BTW - SKSCanuck - a 303 is an excellent choice when stalking those rogue, bristling, Keiths cans.
 
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i shoot 98ks primarily i shoot at 6 inch black circles any size groups under 3 inches im very happy with. the poi changes with every diffrent load so i just look at group size not where they hit in relation to the bullseye.as far as loads ive found varget to be the best powder with all bullet weights. bullet weight seems best at 170-200 grains i cant get 150s to shoot well at all ive ordered 2000 rnds of 8X63 swedish and am gonna pull them down hope i can find a good recipe for 218 graiers
 
I am new to Milsurp rifles (I only own two) but my best so far group is from Mosin Nagant. I was using iron sights and the trigger sucked, hard to figure that trigger out. The rifle was resting on sand bag, not mine Sinlcair rest, which was used by my GF shooting 6PPC.

Here is the pic:


I had to make a quick target, because all mine are small size, so I grab some stickers in red and green color and put it on white cardboard, so I can see the target well :)
 
In the days of iron sights, the military was happy if a trained soldier could shoot 4-6" groups from the prone position. The rifles were generally capable of better accuracy than that and an expert marksman could tighten these groups considerably. However, milsurp ammo had a grouping ability of about 2" at 100y. IIRC, when new, generally misurp rifles were acceptable if they could group around 3-4MOA with mil ammo.

Nowadays, with optical sights and better QC on military ammo, I'd say that modern military rifles should group around 1.5 to 2 MOA in the supported position.
 
k31 at 100m, this group is pretty tight, and the average is a bit larger, but not much
k31.jpg

k31 at 200m with diopter sights, 2 sighters then the last 3 rounds i had that day,
k31200m.jpg

Both these are 100m with breda m1
bredam1.jpg

bredam2.jpg
 
Hitzy,
that what I do. I have .284 Win brass sized to 7.5x55 and so far I started with 165gr NBT and IMR4064.
What is your bullet and what is your powder?
How far you load your bullets?
Problem for me are the sights, I hate iron open sights. Next week I should have MOJO and then I will make another trip to the range.
 
PeterPan said:
Hitzy,
that what I do. I have .284 Win brass sized to 7.5x55 and so far I started with 165gr NBT and IMR4064.
What is your bullet and what is your powder?
How far you load your bullets?
Problem for me are the sights, I hate iron open sights. Next week I should have MOJO and then I will make another trip to the range.
Click to expand...

Get a St.Marie Diopter set, very nice stuff, you can even mount a scope on the base. I use 46g of Varget with hornady bulk 150gFMJ's. I find they shoot as good or better then match bullets in all my milsurps.
diop7.jpg
 
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Hitzy,
this is a nice rifle and a like your sights, however my MOJOs are coming and I have to give'em a chance.
What kind of a coat have you apply to your back plate?
Nice stock, have you re-finished?

Peter ;)
 
PeterPan said:
Hitzy,
this is a nice rifle and a like your sights, however my MOJOs are coming and I have to give'em a chance.
What kind of a coat have you apply to your back plate?
Nice stock, have you re-finished?

Peter ;)
Click to expand...

Buttplate was pretty scratched up, used a wire wheel to clean it up then painted with Armacoat matte black. Refinshed the stock with BLO, the butt section was pretty scratched up and ugle looking when I got it.
Have you tried removing the rear sight yet? I couldn't get either one of mine off......
 
No, not yet. I am waiting for MOJO sights to come, hopefully this coming week. There is an instruction how to do it right, so I wait and follow step by step.
That guy from MOJO, told me it is as simple as knocking out the pin, and push it out.
We will see.

I am so excited to get this rifle dial up and do some friendly competition :)
 
Just remember that our milsurp matchs require the rifles to be original and unmodified, including the sights. I used my K31 with the issue irons in one of our shoots, did pretty well. Shot the highest score I ever shot on the sitting stage with it. The sights were hard to use in the snap stage though.....so now I use my M1 or M1917.
 
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