Shooting 24" to the right

Another potential error you could be running into.. although going from 20 to 30 moa is probably not extreme enough to be the case..

..if your scope is canted, or if the reticle travel is not square/vertical, when you dial the extra vertical moa adjustment, your crosshairs could be moving to the side/not strictly vertical introducing the windage error.

You can confirm your scope is tracking vertical by shooting a "tall test". Basically put a "12 inch" line vertical on a target with a level or plumb bob. Put an aiming point on the bottom. Shoot at said point and have your shots land on the line. Now dial 10 moa drop/bring your shot up 10 moa/move crosshairs down 10 moa. Aim at the same aiming spot. Your shots should fall on the line near the top.

Any error (ie shots falling off to the side of the line) is either your scope is not mounted square, or your turrets traveling on an angle.

Again, going from 20 to 30 moa sn't likely a large enough swing for this to be your issue, And at 24 8ncjes off, you would see the angle or sideways scope travel with the naked eye.

As scopes have gotten better this is less and less likely.
 
Brad243 said:
Another potential error you could be running into.. although going from 20 to 30 moa is probably not extreme enough to be the case..

..if your scope is canted, or if the reticle travel is not square/vertical, when you dial the extra vertical moa adjustment, your crosshairs could be moving to the side/not strictly vertical introducing the windage error.

You can confirm your scope is tracking vertical by shooting a "tall test". Basically put a "12 inch" line vertical on a target with a level or plumb bob. Put an aiming point on the bottom. Shoot at said point and have your shots land on the line. Now dial 10 moa drop/bring your shot up 10 moa/move crosshairs down 10 moa. Aim at the same aiming spot. Your shots should fall on the line near the top.

Any error (ie shots falling off to the side of the line) is either your scope is not mounted square, or your turrets traveling on an angle.

Again, going from 20 to 30 moa sn't likely a large enough swing for this to be your issue, And at 24 8ncjes off, you would see the angle or sideways scope travel with the naked eye.

As scopes have gotten better this is less and less likely.
Click to expand...
He's not going to have that problem with the type of rings/inserts he's using.
 
You 100% can mount a scope canted on an angle, or get a scope that doesnt travel vertical, no matter what rings you use.

But I went back and re read his post. You are correct. I had missed where he said he changed the vertical inserts. I only caught the windage correction, so I ASSSUMED he was dialing the extra 10 moa.
 
Brad243 said:
Another potential error you could be running into.. although going from 20 to 30 moa is probably not extreme enough to be the case..

..if your scope is canted, or if the reticle travel is not square/vertical, when you dial the extra vertical moa adjustment, your crosshairs could be moving to the side/not strictly vertical introducing the windage error.

You can confirm your scope is tracking vertical by shooting a "tall test". Basically put a "12 inch" line vertical on a target with a level or plumb bob. Put an aiming point on the bottom. Shoot at said point and have your shots land on the line. Now dial 10 moa drop/bring your shot up 10 moa/move crosshairs down 10 moa. Aim at the same aiming spot. Your shots should fall on the line near the top.

Any error (ie shots falling off to the side of the line) is either your scope is not mounted square, or your turrets traveling on an angle.

Again, going from 20 to 30 moa sn't likely a large enough swing for this to be your issue, And at 24 8ncjes off, you would see the angle or sideways scope travel with the naked eye.

As scopes have gotten better this is less and less likely.
Click to expand...

I did think that possibly maybe I got the cross hair canted in combination with the +10 rail and thats where my gross error was... but I reset the rifle in the bags and the reticle was bang on plumb.

Every once inawhile I think that maybe how the rifle sits in the bags is counter productive to the squareness of the action and an inclined rail... but then I would have seen more than 2 minutes of error with the first scope/rail/rings so I kind of rule that out as being a major contributing factor although it could be a minor factor.

I started on a sheet of cardboard at 50 meters with fine tip jiffy marker crosshairs as aiming points(used a level to draw them after the cardboard was posted) and every shot has been fired with the cross hair lined up on the drawn level aiming point. Theoretically I can assume cant isnt the issue unless the cant is in the rail or rings itself.

So the original inserts were 0/5(only because the rings dont come with 2 sets of zero's. 0 front, with the 5 in the rear so I effectively had a 25moa start. (Technically with 4" ring spacing, the 5 actually equals 5.93 correction... but we'll keep it nominal for now at 5)

The first shot at 50 meters was
10 3/16" high and 12 1/8" to the right. Both elevation and windage turrets at their mechanical zero.

I put a 0 in the rear. And 20 in the front such that it moved the scope directly over. Same aiming point, 50 meters. Didnt touch the turrets.
9 3/4" high, 7/16" to the left.
(I think the 20's with their thickness further reduced the downward inclination even though I removed the 5 in the rear.)

I then dialed the elevation turret down 17 minutes and fired again. It got closer to the vertical line than 7/16" but I didnt shoot any groups so I'm working with the assumption it could have moved just due to where the next shot in a group could have gone.

Now I've been shooting groups at 100 meters(I said 100 yards in the first post but actually meters, lol). As it sits now, the rifle with 0 rear, 20 front, 0 windage turret, 17 down on the elevation turret, at 100 meters it shoots
Bang on elevation, 3/4" to the left.

So... in summary it does kind of look like the scope is at an arbitrary alignment at 100 and will continue to shoot more left the further it goes.

I intend on doing a tall target test and shooting at further distances to see what happens... but I am kind of thinking at this point it is likely I have a misalignment issue of some such being.... scope likely at a sideways angle to the bore, and potentially cant.

Something that crosses my mind is if my "mechanical zero" of the turrets being equidistant in their travel isnt actually zero in the scope... I wish I would have tried the mirror method of zero'ing the scope at this point.... although the turret and 0 is real close to the 0 line on the turret body. So.. it's likely not off more than a click or 6... certainly not an entire revolution+.
 
fiftycalforsquirrels said:
I did think that possibly maybe I got the cross hair canted in combination with the +10 rail and thats where my gross error was... but I reset the rifle in the bags and the reticle was bang on plumb.

Every once inawhile I think that maybe how the rifle sits in the bags is counter productive to the squareness of the action and an inclined rail... but then I would have seen more than 2 minutes of error with the first scope/rail/rings so I kind of rule that out as being a major contributing factor although it could be a minor factor.

I started on a sheet of cardboard at 50 meters with fine tip jiffy marker crosshairs as aiming points(used a level to draw them after the cardboard was posted) and every shot has been fired with the cross hair lined up on the drawn level aiming point. Theoretically I can assume cant isnt the issue unless the cant is in the rail or rings itself.

So the original inserts were 0/5(only because the rings dont come with 2 sets of zero's. 0 front, with the 5 in the rear so I effectively had a 25moa start. (Technically with 4" ring spacing, the 5 actually equals 5.93 correction... but we'll keep it nominal for now at 5)

The first shot at 50 meters was
10 3/16" high and 12 1/8" to the right. Both elevation and windage turrets at their mechanical zero.

I put a 0 in the rear. And 20 in the front such that it moved the scope directly over. Same aiming point, 50 meters. Didnt touch the turrets.
9 3/4" high, 7/16" to the left.
(I think the 20's with their thickness further reduced the downward inclination even though I removed the 5 in the rear.)

I then dialed the elevation turret down 17 minutes and fired again. It got closer to the vertical line than 7/16" but I didnt shoot any groups so I'm working with the assumption it could have moved just due to where the next shot in a group could have gone.

Now I've been shooting groups at 100 meters(I said 100 yards in the first post but actually meters, lol). As it sits now, the rifle with 0 rear, 20 front, 0 windage turret, 17 down on the elevation turret, at 100 meters it shoots
Bang on elevation, 3/4" to the left.

So... in summary it does kind of look like the scope is at an arbitrary alignment at 100 and will continue to shoot more left the further it goes.

I intend on doing a tall target test and shooting at further distances to see what happens... but I am kind of thinking at this point it is likely I have a misalignment issue of some such being.... scope likely at a sideways angle to the bore, and potentially cant.

Something that crosses my mind is if my "mechanical zero" of the turrets being equidistant in their travel isnt actually zero in the scope... I wish I would have tried the mirror method of zero'ing the scope at this point.... although the turret and 0 is real close to the 0 line on the turret body. So.. it's likely not off more than a click or 6... certainly not an entire revolution+.
Click to expand...
OP - some years ago my brother had bought a brand new rifle - 308 Win - being a Red Seal Industrial Mechanic, he was kind of fussy how things lined up - he went through two of his own scopes, also Corlanes in Dawson City used their's - always was shooting to the left - although able to be "sighted in", by adjusting the scope turrets - as I recall, it took 16 "clicks" in the scope to get the group of bullet holes on centre. Then Savage returned their target - their bases, their rings, their scope - also "sighted in" - therefore there was no issue, according to them. Upon disassembly and careful inspection - we discovered a drag mark on the action bluing - underneath - so it was apparent to us that the rear of the receiver was swiveling as the bullet exited the barrel - does not matter where stuff is pointed - it only matters how stuff is aligned when the bullet exits the barrel - we are still sort of lost how that swivelling repeats so predictably - action screws were torqued to maker's specs, but the thing still moves, slightly. We believe that the scope is sitting "square" on the receiver, but the whole thing (action) swivels in the stock - slightly - on firing. It is also possible that the barrel "whips" to one side on firing, but that will not explain the drag mark that we found on the receiver.
 
Potashminer said:
OP - some years ago my brother had bought a brand new rifle - 308 Win - being a Red Seal Industrial Mechanic, he was kind of fussy how things lined up - he went through two of his own scopes, also Corlanes in Dawson City used their's - always was shooting to the left - although able to be "sighted in", by adjusting the scope turrets - as I recall, it took 16 "clicks" in the scope to get the group of bullet holes on centre. Then Savage returned their target - their bases, their rings, their scope - also "sighted in" - therefore there was no issue, according to them. Upon disassembly and careful inspection - we discovered a drag mark on the action bluing - underneath - so it was apparent to us that the rear of the receiver was swiveling as the bullet exited the barrel - does not matter where stuff is pointed - it only matters how stuff is aligned when the bullet exits the barrel - we are still sort of lost how that swivelling repeats so predictably - action screws were torqued to maker's specs, but the thing still moves, slightly. We believe that the scope is sitting "square" on the receiver, but the whole thing (action) swivels in the stock - slightly - on firing. It is also possible that the barrel "whips" to one side on firing, but that will not explain the drag mark that we found on the receiver.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you guys went around in circles there for awhile...I bet it was gratifying to find the problem.

I've had the action out of the stock a few times and dont recall anything out of the ordinary but... I also wasnt particularly looking for a problem.
 
Brad243 said:
And at 24 8ncjes off, you would see the angle or sideways scope travel with the naked eye.
Click to expand...

At 24 inches off... looking at the rifle and optic with intent to find misalignment, it is quite clear to me now that the scope isnt even close to square to the rifle. I mean it's pretty close... but that only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

As an update to my problem after some investigations....to keep it short and sweet for now:

The Burris XTR signature rings are the source to 99% of my headache and perplexion. The rings are machined off center by a fair margin. Pretty lame... will likely see what Burris has to say for themselves. Hopefully these arent the blue print and I just got a Friday afternoon set of rings. Kind of defeats the purpose of having insert options if youre using all of the insert just to baseline the off center ring.

As for the MDT rail, it's an $80 rail... not a $200 rail. What should I expect. It has a bow in it and rocks on the reciever. When torqued down it's flat enough and square enough. Probably aligned good enough for government work... I dont particularly see it being the cause of my shooting 2 feet off at 100. I phoned MDT... they have NEVER had an issue with one of these and seemed curious as to how I determined the rail may be bowed and not sit neutral on the reciever. Send pictures and their support team will determine if it's a problem....Maybe I'll get the pictures into them and they'll either send me 2 straight ones, or they'll tell me to torque it down and send it.

I rechecked my scope windage knob, and... this sightron Siii has 70moa of adjustment, which is 280 clicks. The scope actually has 311 clicks. So I put it in the middle of the clicks. But when I did that, I think I added an extra 15 clicks. 311/2 = 155.5.... 35moa is 140 clicks. I started at turned all the way in...likely put 15 clicks on, dialed out my 35 moa...saw a squirrel.... then added 15 more clicks... so throughout this hole deal, I can assume 3.75 minutes of my error was my own problem...... but... when I had the scope off during my checks, I put it on a mirror. The reticle was off.... precisely 15 clicks... so, according to the mirror, the reticle is "centered" at exactly 35 moa from bottomed out not, 35moa+15 clicks.... so I have 31 spare clicks on the far right.
Bit rambley there... moral of the story is some of my 2 feet can be contributed to starting with the windage dial off.

If I go by the mirror, my scope is going to be 7.5 moa closer. So... lets say the rifle is actually shooting 16.5 inches to the right, not 24.

So much for short and sweet. Good thing I didnt describe how I checked anything haha.
 
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