Shooting a 223 to a mile accurately..Video posted!!!

Chuck Norris has already accomplished this goal, But it will be interesting to see the results. Please post some video and pic's. Have fun, Be safe and make it happen.
 
Kodiak, we are just above the pits so that would be around 2500ft. NO biggie for elevation. Might need to go a few more yds before going subsonic vs sea level.

mike, pac nor 1 is now being enjoyed by another nutz. Got to sell to fund new pipes.

Lionhill, do you have an adapter for a digi camera/video that can mate to a standard astronomical 1 1/4" eyepiece? My new Pentax uses standard eyepieces. That would give plenty of mag and has superb resolution.

Multiframe camera might catch a still once we know where the bullet is going to land. We are trying to capture a puff the size of a 22LR at 100yds. Going to need great glass.

I really doubt a smaller handheld anything is going to have the mag and resolution to pick up that small of a puff.

Now if you want to put a camera downrange.....LRC, how fast can you drive a Rhino?

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Lionhill, do you have an adapter for a digi camera/video that can mate to a standard astronomical 1 1/4" eyepiece? My new Pentax uses standard eyepieces. That would give plenty of mag and has superb resolution.

Jerry
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I have a rig that can marry the digital camera to a bushnell scope. It will demand a bit more gear to bring, but what the heck. It's not discovery channel quality, but it'll show the impact(s) and give a good account.

I've used it bird watching and I'm surprised how much you can see.

LH
 
Jerry, I'm pretty sure Stan F. and Clint and Patty D. came out and "played" with some of us FR's one day after a match at Nokomis and we all went out to 1200 yds. These three TR shooters were using 5.56's and 80g bullets. Clint ran out of elevation since his sights are on backwards (RH shooter and his peep sights are set up(offset) for so he can use his left eye for aiming)

A mile would be pushing it for a 223 IMO. I have seen a 6BR/105g at a mile and it is coming down on such a steep angle and with zip for energy. We found bullets in the wood frame of the gong that were stuck in like darts at about a 60+ degree angle.

Good luck. Looking forward to seeing some results/pics/video.

Keith
 
Jerry,

Are you going to use a tall (custom) rear block with Burris inserts or what are you thinking??

You will need a spotter much closer to the POI to call the shots. The bullet is going so slow at 1750 yds that I don't think you could spot the hit in dusty sand! JBM shows an impact similar to a 22LR and a flight time of almost four (yes 4) seconds!

Perhaps that is what you should yell as you squeeze one off....FOUR!!! :D :D

On second though perhaps a golf green would make a more suitable target!

This could get interesting!

Good luck Jerry!
 
Yes, impact velocity will be slow but bullets do not slow down very fast once they go subsonic. Estimated velocity is 900fps which is double the impact energy of a 22LR. Will be a small puff for sure but if i luck into some dusty area, should be visible.

Certainly have the optics to see it if it makes it. First things first. Get a load worked out. Shim the scope like crazy. Go bust primers out to 1400yds and see if the bullets stays stable.

Yes, the scope will be shimed both with a MOA base (EGW) and Burris rings AND some shims.

I am estimating my 100yd zero at full down elevation should land 40 to 46"
HIGH. Yep, almost 4 ft UP.

That should let the bullet drop around 1200ish yds. Unfortunately, my high elevation scopes aren't out yet so have to make do with lower adj amounts.

40mins plus the reticle will get me there.

Jerry
 
Today, I shot my first ZERO for the year. Looks like this new Pac Nor barrel has potential. The load is 24.1gr of Varget in Win cases, CCI 450 primers, Berger 80gr VLD. All shot at 200yds in light but gusty winds. Certainly not the kind of conditions I would have expected this groups.

Sometimes you miss all into the same hole. Other good loads have been in the 1's. Very promising indeed

This 3 shot group measures outside to outside - 0.280" to yield a 0.056" group or 0.028mins. My smallest group ever at 200yds :)

Not bad for an untuned Stevens, prethreaded/chambered barrel, bedded into a Choate varminter stock.

223pacnor.jpg


More testing to try and find a higher velocity node. Would like to be near 3000fps if possible. Looking forward for the snow to melt to see how this accuracy works out at extreme distances.
Jerry

PS for all those who are depending on chronie data to decide on a 'good' load, the three shots were 2877, 2824, 2842fps. Pretty lousy spread but it didn't seem to hurt the group. Test on paper. Use the Chronie to keep from blowing yourself up or to see plateaus which usually indicate accuracy nodes....sometimes.
 
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Trying to find a higher node didn't work out. Got the velocity in the 2950ish range but groups opened up. Still most were in the 1/2 min range but LOTS of vertical. That will never work at LR.

So back to the slower but accurate load. Ran some numbers to compare the 100fps difference and it didn't amount to much. Still dropping like a stone.

Shimmed the scope base and might get a chance to see where this zeros at.

Jerry
 
Thanks Mike. I felt like I pulled the last shot and got lucky and pulled it INTO the group. The barrel is definitely shooting well when fed the Bergers. Now to get some more.

Had a chance to shim the scope today. 4ft up at 100yds. Quite the stack of shims :)

Running 7- 5thou shims (approx 35 thou which should equal 35 to 40mins), 25MOA base and 20mins in the Burris rings to get it shimmed. This should actually move the POI about 60" up (the shim from the rings is taken up by the scope going full down) so you can't just go by base amount to get the scope shimmed. The only way to know is to shoot it on paper then adjust accordingly.

Best part is I can dial down the Elite Tactical to 6X to 10X and still shoot at 100yds by aiming low with the top of the mil dot reticle. Will be interesting to see where the reticle 'zeros' at.

Now to wait for the snow to melt..... GRRRRRRR

Jerry
 
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mysticplayer said:
Since there was a fair bit of debate on my LR fun shoot post, I thought I would just make a thread so that any debate could continue without cluttering up that thread.

Here is the task. This spring Troutseeker and I are going to push our 223's and see if it can reach the mile accurately.

I will be using a Pac Nor 7 twist 5R 28" match barrel on a Stevens 200 action to direct 75gr and 80g Amax, and 80gr Bergers. This is a new barrel but initial testing today shows it has potential. Got some 1/4" groups at 100yds.

TS will be using 75gr Amax in a Savage 12FVSS. The rifle is brand new and unfired.

In case you haven't heard, there is much talk about bullets loosing accuracy after they go subsonic. It is repeated so often that it has become an urban legend.

Having shot almost to 2000yds, I have seen many bullets happily fly accurately after becoming subsonic. Some bullets don't make it though.

I have also seen how accurate cast bullet black powder cartridge rifles can be. These operate almost always in the subsonic region and have very low BC numbers. 600 and 800yds groups have broken MOA accuracy. Amazing considering these are with period rifles (modern construction) and sights. Test by the US army in the 1800's pushed 45-70 slugs to almost 2 miles and they actual recovered the bullets in a rather large target.

The key to this legend are bullets like the 168gr MK that are supposed to loose stability and tumble once they slow down (personally not use them so can't say). Another surprising bullet is the 175gr MK out of a 308. Hit the wall at 1400+yds. Was spotting and it was quite neat to watch.

One of the key factors debated is whether the bullet simply isn't spinning fast enough, hits the transonic turbulence, wobbles which leads to tumbling. Or something us non aero eng know about.

Having shot some 155gr Amax with 12 and 13twist barrels well beyond where it would go subsonic, I can say, spin stability is not always the key reason. But I am sure for some bullets, it plays a very important role.

The detractors believe that a bullet so small and light as these 22cal bullets would just get tossed around by any wind and loose all semblance of accuracy. This is if they don't first tumble after they go subsonic.

Wind is indeed a big problem but I suspect that it will be no worse then driving a 308- that's what the number predict.

I have shot the 75gr Amax at moderate speeds to 1200+yds. Definitely subsonic and in the winds of the day, accuracy was indeed nothing special. However, the bullet did get there.

My first Pac Nor had no issue putting these 75gr bullets into 1/2 to 2/3min at 1000m. Another novice shooter hit the same target that day so no fluke. At this distance, the bullet should be right in the transonic speed range and that is not ideal so the theory goes.

In order to see what happens that far out, I must first make sure the bullets DO stay stable after being subsonic. This means shooting to out to 1400yds. Accuracy would need to be in the 1 to 2 MOA range under calm or driveable conditions or else you are pretty much spraying the hillside. Lots of properly sized rocks in my target area so this will be easy to set up.

If that works out, then to continue to push further until we get to or not get to a mile (1760yds).

It will take ALOT of scope elevation and at some point, holdover will be necessary. Spotting the impacts will be challenging but the ground is quite dusty so I hope to get some kick up.

I will post my results as I go so that we can see how successful this concept is. Wind will be a huge problem but that is the same even with a 338. I will try for calmer weather.

I am very optimistic my pipe can make it happen. The faster 7 twist will certainly give the 80gr bullets all the spin they will need. The accuracy shown so far gives me the mechanical accuracy needed. Now to see how the bullets feel about making the trip.

Will also compare the relative drops of the Amax and Berger (if the pipe likes the Bergers). They are almost identical in shape. One with a poly tip, the other HP. Will be interesting to see which drops more. Any bets on which one?

Jerry
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Hey Jerry, once you get those lil .223 boolits out that far you can get a small catchers mitt for the local gophers and see if they can catch a few.
Of course we would need pix of the shoot-catch match.:sniper:
 
Hopefully, I can train a gopher to run fast cause dropping a bullet on him will be a challenge. Unfortunately, the first time we 'connect', all that hard work will go poof.

Still hitting with twice the oomph of a 22LR at the 25yds. That'll leave a mark.

Jerry
 
Let's see here. If I plug a 1700 yard zero into pejsa's formula, I see a peak height of about 80 feet above the ground, right around the 1100 yard mark; for a 100 yard zero of +130." - the bullet is being launched up at around 2 DEGREES!

Doing some basic trig: with a 382" predicted drop between 1600 and 1700 yards, that means the bullet will be impacting at around a 6 degree angle. That may not sound steep, but compare it to the impact angle of 1.3 degrees if you were only shooting to 1000 yards, or 2/10ths of a degree at 500 yards.
 
The wind is the big issue. I am sure you looked at the drift numbers if you miss the read by a few MPH....SCHWING!!!!

I have seen big heavy bullets loafing out of BCPR rifles in 45-100/45-120 and 45-70's. At LR (say 800 to 1000yds), see how they fly. That's artillery but they sure leave an impression when they arrive.

Just like artillery...

Although I have shimmed the scope ALOT, the amount that it has actually tipped is not visually that impressive. If I didn't indicate the stack of shims, most wouldn't even think it was canted. However, the effect at 100yds was a hoot.

Jerry
 
blackpowder rifles shooting to the 1000 yard range and getting decent accuracy are also shooting bullets weighing in 5-6 times what yours are, a 550 grain bullet is a bit harder for the wind to push around than an 85 grain bullet.

im no phisics wiz but i would assume a gun shooting a 550 grain bullet at 1600-1800 fps would take longer to slow down to subsonic than a 85 grain bullet shot at 2300-2800 fps.
 
Aries, if you do a bit of snooping you will find that these heavy RN slugs have bumble bee ballistics. Most have BC's in the 3's. The occasional spitzer in the 4's (not a common bullet shape).

The muzzle velocity is going super fast if it breaks 1300fps. Most shoot around the speed of sound - 1100fps. These bullets make almost their entire trip subsonic.

Wind drift is best described as ENORMOUS but they fly surprisingly consistent allowing for wind doping. Time of flight is many times longer then a 223.

Comparing a 80gr Amax/Berger ballistically would be like a Kia vs a Porsche.

Jerry
 
One of the key factors debated is whether the bullet simply isn't spinning fast enough, hits the transonic turbulence, wobbles which leads to tumbling.
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The issue is not subsonic flight stability. It is crossing the transonic barrier which is likely to cause issues. I don't think spin stability will be the problem. Supersonic bullets havin increasing stability with range because their forward velocity drops much faster than their rotational velocity.

I don't know if the "myth" of bullets losing stability when they cross the sonic barrier is true or not. That would be a good place to start. If you could prove it either way you would have accomplished something.

I have done a lot of experimentation with subsonic ammunition. What I can tell you about subsonic flight stability and accuracy is that bullets wobbling grossly can be surprisingly accurate. I have groups which show complete sideways impacts. These groups are no bigger than others which didn't show any instability.

All my testing has been with bullets that started out subsonic. I don't know if what I learned holds true for bullets which started out supersonic and then went subsonic. I suspect that is a different situation as the rotational velocity would be much higher.

Anyway, with "conventional" subsonics, flight stability can decay with distance and it requires a much higher factor of stability than a supersonic bullet. That is a subsonic must be shorter or must be spun faster to be stable. How the bullet is shaped also makes a difference. Something with too much weight at one end (like a 168gr BTHP) will tend to want to swap ends no matter which way it is flying.

For more info on subsonics check my page here:
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html

I have shot a .243 to a mile and what you are proposing is a non-trivial problem. One big issue we ran into was the bullets were just too small to produce a decent dust signature or splatter on a miss. Thus it becomes exceedingly difficult to correct for misses.

You will also likely have issues with scope elevation. I used the Burris scope rings with the replaceable offsets to gain extra elevation.

Just so everyone knows what you are attempting I thought these pictures might illustrate it a bit better. This is a 2'x4' target at 1700 yds. Just shy of the 1760 yds in a mile.

1700ydTarget.JPG


Same target seen through a 16x scope.

1700ydScope.JPG


That day I couldn't get on target cause the bullets didn't produce any dust signature. However we did put 4 of 8 shots into the target at 1500 yds. ;)
 
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