shooting a demascus barrel?

[smellie]

1953 Gun Digest......

Eisenhower was President, Papa Doc was President in Haiti, Papa Louis was Prime Minister of Canada (and universally respected, even though a Liberal), the economy was roaring, Korea had just quieted down, things were getting ready for Dien Bien Phu in a place that nobody had ever heard of.


The Ford flathead V-8 and the Chevy Stovebolt 6 were the State of the Art in automobile engines and the DC-6B was in service as a modern international airliner.

The US Springfield rifle, caliber .30, M-1906 was the ONLY military rifle that MIGHT be safe to fire because it was the finest rifle eve made, the Lee-Enfield had weak actions and were barely safe to shoot with loads above .30-30 levels and pristine 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauers were being Bubba`d at a rate so fast that almost none survive today.

I would think that we might have progressed a bit since 1953 and no longer have to take the 1953 Gun Digest as Holy Writ. The British have had their Proof Houses up and running for 400 years now; they just MIGHT have learned something in that time.

BTW, the `SMITHY`says nothing. A `SMITHY`is a place where a SMITH does his work.

Inspect carefully, then shoot carefully, same as anything else.
.

 

[tactical870]

Inspect carefully, then shoot carefully, same as anything else.
.

Well said.

 

[Suputin]

The other 'issue' that they pretty much put to rest was that the pressure would spike out of hand, using 2 3/4 shells in a 2 1/2 chamber. That article (articles, actually) is worth a read, too.

Link?

 

[tiriaq]

Don't know about online, but certainly in print in DGJ.
Basically loads were fired in a pressure test barrel with correct chamber length mounted in a universal receiver, and then fired again in a pressure barrel with the shorter chamber.
Pressures were increased, but nothing like the warnings and stories about this practice would have you believe. IIRC, in no case did the pressure increase to the point that there would have been a dangerous situation. Increases tended to run from several hundred to perhaps a thousand pounds. In addition, thinner plastic loads were tested along with ones assembled in thicker paper cases. The thicker cases are supposed to create even greater overpressures than the thinner ones. In testing, didn't make much difference. Some of the longer cases did have parts of the crimp area torn away. Pressures still didn't skyrocket.
The author, Sherman Bell, did NOT suggest that longer cases be used in shorter chambers; he did report his findings that presssure increses were much less than anticipated.
As far as black vs smokeless pressures and pressure curves went, there was less difference than commonly believed. Some loads obviously do produce significantly more pressure than others, but these were just plain hot loads. When normal working loads were tested, there wasn't much difference.
In one test a Damascus (Belgian made barrels) barrelled Parker was sacrificed. The gun had decent bores, and was tight, but was basically a grey/brown well used gun. When the barrels failed, the failures started where the longitudinal hole for the extractor stem had weakened them, and propagated from there. It took loads producing in excess of 28000 to rupture the barrels. There were NO signs of any rust, corrosion or voids in the Damascus welds. Had the barrels not been weakened for the extractor unit, there barrels would have held these loads. Standard working loads for this gun would have produced less than 10000, so there was a substantial margin of safety built into the Damascus barrels.

 

[trevj]

Link?

I had to read it in hard copy.

Got some general references for where to look, date-wise, from online. Was a couple years ago.

I'll see if I kept a copy in my files (the piles, actually), or if I can find my refs.

<edit> tiriaq gave a pretty good rundown of the results while I was trying to find some dates online again. Short version for me, was to look at 'standard' loads, rather than 'High Speed', if I were to use 2 3/4" shells, and to look at reload data for shells topping out at around 10k psi on 1oz or 1 1/8 oz loads, for my 2 1/2" chambered gun.

Cheers
Trev

 

[Win/64]

I was going through my stack of Double Gun Journals and found an interesting series of articles by Sherman Bell. One focussed on pressure levels and pressure curves of black and smokeless powder loads in 12 bore chambers of the various lengths, using an actual pressure test gun.
There are a LOT of examples of conventional wisdom, frequently repeated as gospel, that have no relationship to observed results under controlled conditions.
In the last couple of weeks, I have inspected a couple of British shotguns, with high grade pattern welded Damascus barrels. One Cogswell and Harrison 12 bore, the other a Thomas Bland 20. Both were proof marked for Nitro, the 12 bore for 1 1/4 oz. loads.

I have a Damascus barreled Claybrough & Brothers that is Nitro proofed for 2 3/4, 1 1/4 oz loads. Just to make sure it was safe to shoot I took it to a quality smith to have it checked out. He checked it out thoroughly. And said it would be fine with modern powder.
He also mentioned that when Nitro powder first came out there was no real loading data for it. So it was loaded to the same specks as black powder. Needless to say this ended up in a lot of blow ups. So the powers that be decided to cover their bases and say Nitro powder is unsafe in all Damascus barreled guns.
A "sound" Damascus gun even without Nitro proofs maybe perfectly safe to shoot with modern shells. Just make sure you have the correct chamber length and stick with lower pressure shells. But most important is to have it checked out by a quality smith.

 

[Win/64]

Damascus barrels are not considered safe to shoot with any ammo.

This is simply not true.

 

[tiriaq]

Further to Bell's testing.....
I do not believe any of the loads tested used heavy one piece plastic shotcup units.
No 3" magnum steel shot loads were fired in 2" chambered game guns.
Apart from the loads deliberately assembled to produce overpressures - like the ones used to blow the barrels on the Parker - the loads tested were normal ones appropriate for field use.

 

[tactical870]

One thing to consider in loading for damascus guns is that modern shot cups should never be used as they seal tight to the bore, producing much higher pressures than the original nitro card and cusion wad originally used even with the same load.

 

[mooncoon]

One thing to consider in loading for damascus guns is that modern shot cups should never be used as they seal tight to the bore, producing much higher pressures than the original nitro card and cusion wad originally used even with the same load.

I would not agree with that statement. Plastic shotcups should not be used with black powder because of the risk of the plastic melting off the shot cup and sticking to the bore. I have shot many hundreds of plastic cups through my guns using smokeless powder however. I do keep my loads down in the 7000 psi range
Some older guns do have chamber walls that are markedly under .15" thick and those ones I only shoot black powder out of. If the chamber walls at the breach face are .15, I shoot smokeless out of them during practice.
cheers mooncoon

 

[tokguy]

I hate to think how many shells i have put through my damascus barreled shotguns, black powder handloads of course.

I've got a Belgian Guild Gun in 10Ga with laminate barrels. Whats the difference between Laminate and Damascus?
I'd love to reload some rounds for mine, but where to start? FFg , no problem. Brand new 10 ga hulls, yep ( although I'm thinking that they'll need a trimming ).
Will I need a vintage reloader to handle the shorter rounds?

 

[tiriaq]

It is my understanding that Belgian laminated barrels were made by a roll welding - laminating process.
As far as the term "Damascus" is concerned, at the time welded barrels were being made, there were specifc terms for the different types of weldeing techniques. There are many different weld patterns seen. Barrel welders were highly skilled. Perhaps the most remarkable were the barrels forged by Zenobe Gramme of Liege. He welded up barrels that had names worked into the welded matrix.
Until the mid-19th century, almost all iron/steel barrels were made by welding. Barrels drilled and reamed from solid bar steel only started appearing in quantity in the 1850s and 1860s.
Nowadays, many people use the term for any welded barrel.
Neither I, nor anyone else on this forum can tell you if your gun is a shooter. Use your own judgement, consult an experienced 'smith.
Measure the chamber lengths, and trim your cases to suit.
I would look for an antique set of handloading tools. These can be found, and do not tend to be expensive. You can also do all loading operations with improvised handmade tools. It IS nice to find a roll crimper.

 

[mooncoon]

Whats the difference between Laminate and Damascus?

Laminated means any sort of steel made from multiple pieces welded together. For the most part this term comes from the late 1800s when it was used to distinguish from barrels made of fluid or homogenous steel ie steel not forge welded from many small pieces. Around this time you can also find the term damascus pattern which is actually fluid steel etched to resemble damascus steel (because damascus was considered to be stronger at that time but fluid steel was cheaper to make)
Today we call any barrels made of multiple small pieces forge welded together to be damascus --- at the time they were being made they were actually broken into twist and damascus barrels. Both started with the many small pieces (horse shoe nails, metal trimmings, or deliberately cut small pieces) and forged together to make a single bar called a skelp. Think 1/2" to 3/4" wide and 3' or so long called a skelp. If I have my terms correct, that skelp was wound around a mandrel and forge welded into a continuous tube. In some cases several tubes were welded end for end but most of the barrels that I have seen, another skelp was welded on the end of the first and the wrapping and welding continued to create a full length barrel.
To create the more highly figured figure 8 patterns, the laminated bar was heated and twisted before drawing out to a flat skelp and when formed into a barrel was referred to as twist as in stub twist (for horseshoe nail stubs)
French military barrels in the early 1800s were laminated in 3 layers like a stack of pancakes. The pattern of 42 US musket barrel was made from a flat bar formed into a tube with a longitudinal seam.
By the late 1840s, barrels were being rolled from solid stock and this became particularly common after the bessemer process in 1854 which provided homogenous and low carbon steel/iron. Enfield barrels for example started I think around 6" long and 3" diameter with a 1/2" hole punched or later drilled through the center. This was heated and drawn through a series of grooved rollers to create the shape

cheers mooncoon