Shooting black powder in a 135-year old Old West sixgun

Win 38-55

Win 38-55

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Well men, I've been wondering what the original load of 23 grains of black powder would do out my original 135-year old S&W 2nd Model American chambered in 44 Russian. Mike Venturino only put 19 grains of FFFg in his for velocity of 740 fps. I have a very non-traditional soft cast Elmer Keith bullet that weights 256 grains lubed and sized. For my first five rounds, I only put 16 grains of FFFg and fired them over the chronograph. Average velocity was 626 fps with an E.S. of 33 fps and an S.D. of 15 fps. That seemed to me to be a capacity load in my spanking new, never-before-fired Starline brass, but there was no compression of the powder. I headed back in the house and figured I'd see if I could get 18 grains into those once-fired cases. No problem. That load gave me 685 fps with an E.S. of 15 fps and an S.D. of 6 fps.

Now I got to wondering just how much powder I could squeeze into a spanking new case if I tried compressing it a bit and let the bullet set out. I loaded one round with 20 grains. No problem; lots of room to still set the bullet out. This one gave 692 fps; still mystified about that. Then I loaded 21 grains into a new case. This one round gave me 753 fps. I still had room to set the bullet out a bit more, so I loaded 22 grains of FFFg into three never-fired Starline cases. The bullets were sitting out a bit by now, as you can see in the photo below ...(the one on the left has 22 grains of powder and the one on the right has 18 grains) ...
Cartridges-1.jpg


I fired the three cartridges loaded with 22 grains, just one grain short of the original 23 grains, and chronographed the three bullets at 772 fps, 776 fps, and 791 fps, for an average of 780 fps. I would guess that 23 grains should put me right around 800 fps. Keep in mind, today's shooting was done out of an 8" barrel.

Loading up the old sixgun (my coat doesn't have wings, it was just windy) ....
Loading-up.jpg


Making smoke .....
Smokin.jpg


The old sixgun after 15 rounds .... a bit covered in residue. It letters as having been shipped in 1873 ....
The-Old-Sixgun.jpg


The backstop. Although I wasn't really aiming at anything on the block of wood, I was just aiming to shoot between the wires on the chronograph, 10 rounds went into about an inch and a half, with the other 5 rounds close. The wood was about 17 feet away. I find this old S&W, with its 8" barrel, remarkably easy to shoot accurately (at least for an old geezer like myself who is no great shakes with a sixgun).
wood.jpg


Cleaning the old S&W afterwards ...
Cleaning.jpg


Conclusion: If I can stuff 22 grains of FFFg in spanking new Starline cases, I figure I should be able to put the full 23 grains into the slightly expanded fired cases if I don't do any sizing, which isn't necessary anyway, because the bullets are still a tight fit. I ran out of time to experiment further today, but I will be trying for 23 grains next time.
 
Hey Kirk, gotta ask - what are you using for a holster? Reason I ask is I have an 8" New Model #3 coming (seller wasn't 100% sure of the caliber - but it's either 455 or 45 Webley) and I'm looking for leather for it.
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I think I'm probably going to stick with black in it, although I haven't decided 100%.
Nice report BTW :D
 
Killer Kanuck, I had a fellow down in the USA make up a bunch of leather for me Alan Soelner of Chisholm's Trail (photo below). There's a fellow on Vancouver Island that makes leather too, but I can't recall his name off the top of my head.
Leather.jpg


By the way, very nice #3 you've got coming there. I really like those long barrels.
 
Nice looking rig. I think I'll probably end up going the custom route too. A revolver of that age deserves something a little special :D
 
I am guessing that the person on the Island is Verlin Busch and you could reach him through Victoria F&G although he has a company name and is probably on Canada411.
In rifle shells if you over compress black powder you get lower velocities because you reach a point where the powder becomes a briquet rather than granules. I would suspect your are close approaching that stage with 22 grains. On the other hand over compression may not be quite as much a concern with pistol cartridges since they are a lot shorter than rifle shells.

cheers mooncoon
 
Verlin Busch is not the name of the fellow that made one of my other holsters. Still can't recall his name, but he hand makes all his stuff and dresses like he was in the 1870's. Lives near Victoria I think.
 
Yes! That's the name. He made me a nice holster for my antique S&W New Model #3. Here's a photo of the holster ....
Holster.jpg
 
Nice pictures :)

Kirk dont you Crimp your loaded ammo. If i dont get a good crimp on a hot load the Bullets in the other Chambers can move forward in there Cases.
If your just testing shooting one Rd at a time its no problem.
Not a big deal with Smokeless but with black or Pyrodex if you get Air space its not good.

I had some full pyrodex loaded 45 Scofield cases useing webley 265 Gr bullets and they were seated deeper to fit the ammo in the cylinder. Well there was no real way to Crimp.
The frist couple shots were fine then i noticed the Thrid shot kicked alot more then the next rd would not Cycle because the bullet was sticking outa the front of the Cylinder causeing it to bind.
The Bullets had Creeped Forward with each shot and the last one (that Kicked harder) well that case was hard to extract.

Turned me off Pyrodex in a six gun. I use it in my Rolling block pistol.
 
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Dingus, you are right about crimping. I didn't do it with these test loads, but the bullets seemed to be seated tightly enough that they stayed in place. The noses were just inside the cylinder and any movement would have made the stick out. I will be crimping all my rounds once I go into production. I've got 40 unfired cases that I need to expand, so I'll be putting only 22 grains into them. Then I'll see if I can get 23 grains into the fired cases with no resizing. Either way, I'll be crimping.
 
The only reason i brought it up is because of what Happened to me.
My bullets were not as tight as yours so moved forward easyer.

Its great that your trying new things i am all the time as well. :)

When i tryed to Extract that one case it was pretty tight.
all the hot loads ive shot with Smokeless i never had a case that hard to Extract.
Air space and Pyrodex = not good.
 
Pyrodex is pretty steamy, alright, judging from the data that Mike Venturino has published in his Shooting Six Guns of the Old West. I was talking by email with David Chicoine a few weeks ago, and he mentioned that he's seen 'hundreds' of old S&W top breaks that have stretched top straps from shooting smokeless. I'm scratching my head over that. However, most people shoot Unique in their old top breaks and use hard cast bullets. I wonder if it isn't the pressure spike when the hard cast bullet hits the lands?
 
Well i have 3 S&W Antique Top Breaks and there the Rare Long cylinder models 44 Russian but they all Chamber 44 SP

I buy that Winchester Cowboy 44 SP ammo its like 745 FS so nice and mild.
i can shoot off a box of 50 rds for $30 in one afternoon and none of my guns have Streched.

I think full pyrodex loads are harder on these guns than light smokeless.

I think it only takes a few Bad handloaders to give all Smokeless loads a Bad name in Antiques.
 
Dingus, you're probably right about those few bad handloaders. In my conversation with Chicoine, he said the measurement a fellow needs to make to make sure there's no stretching of the top strap, is the distance between the entrance of the forcing cone to the back of the frame. .... basically the space where the cylinder goes. My 5744 loads don't seem to have done any stretching after a few hundred rounds in my NM #3, but I'll continue to measure. I may use my NM #3 as my smokeless gun and my 2nd American as my BP gun.
 
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