Shooting British military BP rifles?

Canuck Bob

Canuck Bob

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I'm finding the historical side of BP shooting more interesting. I was a Militia Artilleryman in the Lethbridge Independent Field Battery years ago. Canadian BP military rifles interest me greatly. The late flint and onward styles of rifles are my interest. The repro Enfields and antique Mk III Snider Enfields are on my research wish list. Actually I'm leaning heavily to the 2 band PH Enfield maybe attempting to alter it to a 1861 short rifle pattern.

My question revolves around the reality of owning such rifles. What holds me back is the large caliber. How are they to shoot with military loads. I already asked about reduced patched forced ball and it was deemed possible but most shooters recommend the Lyman PH minie style mold. Also this is regards to range shooting focused on 100 mtr offhand shooting with occasionally stretching to longer range off a bench. Occasional forays into Crown forest to ring gongs and breathe fresh air are also on the agenda.

What is your experience with a pleasant day at the range shooting these big bore rifles?

What about the sights for aging eyes? I'm post cataract with good vision at distance. I much prefer peep sights. I would never alter an original but a peep sighted Parker Hale primes my pan.

Also the issue sights are fixed, how do they work in practice? One thing I like about the 2 band is the forward mounted rear sight.

Finally, what are your recipes (bullet and powder) for reduced fun shooting and military equivalent loads? I've been influenced by youtube channels and expect 5 moa benched at 100 meters, agree?

Thanks in advance. Bob
 
Just started playing around with Snider Mk II** in .577 (my first antique). So far I have only fired about 20 shots using cut down 24 gauge casing. So far it shoots ok but I am only using round balls with reduced charges. In the next few weeks I am hoping to fire some bench rest shots at 100m using the now once fired brass that fits the chamber perfectly.

I have to say it's fun shooting a gun that 150 years old in a caliber that takes some effort to make.
 
You might want to look at the pH muzzleloading military target rifles like the Whitworth and volunteer rifles both are 451 cal ,extremely accurate and have better sights
 
Welcome to the world I too discovered!

Small bore smokeless military arms weren’t doing the trick but who doesn’t love hearing the thud of black powder, smelling it and watching your smoke cloud drift down the field (or firing line) at the dismay of any smokeless shooters haha

I am by no means an expert. Watch British muzzle loaders on YouTube, he’s in BC I believe and very very knowledgeable. There are also a TON of very intelligent members on this forum who are more than happy to help. I’m sure they will comment.

Ok, from my experience loads take a while to work up and develop. One example is .577 Snider.

I use 24 gauge brass turned down, some companies and people can do it for you such as X-ring services in the USA, but they have a long wait at last check.

You can use .577 brass but it’s expensive and hard to find.

You can use 24 Guage cheddite hulls cut down to 2” and just load powder, filler and projectile but cheddite seems to make runs and haven’t made any lately.

When it comes to loads every rifle likes their own thing. I have a Snider sargeants pattern that shoots the best with 75gr of FFF, wads, filler and a .600 lead ball! Even more accurate than cast minie bullets.

In other rifles I can’t hit anything with that load. Brass should be dedicated to specific rifles too as chambers vary like crazy and no point in re-sizing after every outing. Your brass will last much longer. You also don’t need dies. Pretty much everything can be done by hand with some tools. The first loading is the hardest, fire formed brass is super easy as everything can be pushed into the case by hand.

It’s so fun to shoot these old guns because your so involved in the entire process and the smoke cloud alone is worth it haha

Hope that helps just a bit ;) I see more people turning to antiques every day
 
The snider is a fun rifle to shoot with the right loads. I down load mine,I use what Kynock uses in their rounds. They use cardboard as an insert in the case. A piece of tube inside the case. I roll a piece of tablet backing around a dowel and insert it into the case. More wraps the less powder used. 55 grs and minie seated on top edge of cardboard compressing the powder. I have Jamison and 24 ga cases. I would strongly recommend a set of dies as rounds are more consistent and I believe that crimping vastly improves accuracy. Goex 1F, 55grs , 480 grs minie slightl compression of powder and a heavy crimp. Works well in one my rifles. Another in shoots 2ft groups instead of 5 inch at 100 meters. My sites. Military rear and a piece of clothes hanger wrapped around the barrel and front site giving me a higher from site. One of my sniders I can't seem to find a load that works, round ball maybe.
 
Snider shooter said:
The snider is a fun rifle to shoot with the right loads. I down load mine,I use what Kynock uses in their rounds. They use cardboard as an insert in the case. A piece of tube inside the case. I roll a piece of tablet backing around a dowel and insert it into the case. More wraps the less powder used. 55 grs and minie seated on top edge of cardboard compressing the powder. I have Jamison and 24 ga cases. I would strongly recommend a set of dies as rounds are more consistent and I believe that crimping vastly improves accuracy. Goex 1F, 55grs , 480 grs minie slightl compression of powder and a heavy crimp. Works well in one my rifles. Another in shoots 2ft groups instead of 5 inch at 100 meters. My sites. Military rear and a piece of clothes hanger wrapped around the barrel and front site giving me a higher from site. One of my sniders I can't seem to find a load that works, round ball maybe.
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I had the same thing with one of my Sniders, finally .600 round ball works very well, and oddly it is now my most accurate Snider.

I have tried everything but found that the less powder I use, the more fouling I get, even with grease, filler, wads etc.

Where do you get 1F?
 
Thank you all. I spent the day reading searched threads here. The expertise here is outstanding. I was amazed at the various marks the Snider comes in with the quant * designations so typical of British military arms. It was encouraging that a good shooter appears to be affordable but solving the ammo question is expensive. I'm already setup to reload and cast however.

britishmuzzleloader is my favorite channel as well as capandball. The detail and education provided by britishmuzzleloader is amazing for these early Enfields.
 
pcvando said:
I had the same thing with one of my Sniders, finally .600 round ball works very well, and oddly it is now my most accurate Snider.

I have tried everything but found that the less powder I use, the more fouling I get, even with grease, filler, wads etc.

Where do you get 1F?
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The local gun shop carries a good supply of BP, Brian Densmore of Musquidobiot valley. Best reloading supplier in Nova Scotia.
 
Regarding Sniders, I chose not to fire .60 solids in my 3-groove long rifles after seeing the amount of deformation of a bullet pounded through from the breech end (a detached barrel). The 3-groove barrels have big, wide lands at the .577 bore diameter. The lands in the 5-groove barrels are much narrower and I do use .60's in these but note that with some rifles the .60 bullet isn't held at all by the fireformed brass which seems less than ideal to me. Also note that the best accuracy with the .60 solid bullets seems to require use of additional lubricant (udder cream) globbed on the bullet immediately before shooting- also not ideal. My favorite approach is still .575 minies held firmly in resized brass with pure beeswax as lube. I find my bore looks as good after 30 rounds as after 3. One characteristic of the Snider with original ammo was its ability to shoot dozens (or even hundreds) of rounds without loss of accuracy. Shooting the Sniders is a heck of a lot of fun!

milsurpo
 
Spent the morning re-watching the youtube channels. I think for now I will pursue the Enfield repro direction first. However a Snider is on the list! There is a build coming utilizing the parts from a .45 Euroarms Hawken and some Pecatonica stock for a LH flintlock rifle. That will be long term and this military rifle itch needs scratching I suspect. Need to top up the gun fund first.

The Mk III seems desirable for it later manufacture, steel barrel, and locking breech, true or not that important?

For reference does the Snider Mk III come in shorter rifles on the Canadian market, an Canadian issued artillery carbine is of interest (found some Cavalry types)?
I see that bubba got his hands on some "sporterized" rifles, what would the value be on one in solid shooting condition?
There is also reference of civilian models, available and all still .577?
I'm assuming they qualify for antique status?

Thanks again,
Bob
 
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Canuck B: If you're buying one to shoot why not buy a good condition Mk III. Definitely the safest. There are quite a few Mk III Short (Sargeants) Rifles available and they are generally considered to be the most accurate (same as Naval rifles in that regard). You'll probably wait a long time to see an artillery carbine up for sale. Civilian models are a good option- some have the Mk III type locking breech along with iron barrels. They are all antiques.

milsurpo
 
Piffffffff rifling is for professionals, smoothbore is where it's at. Join the happy crowd of Brown Bess owners.
 
Murray 3-D said:
Piffffffff rifling is for professionals, smoothbore is where it's at. Join the happy crowd of Brown Bess owners.
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I'm a rifleman at heart, :) . The abilities of some smoothbore shooters is amazing and I respect their choice. For me it would likely amount to the same as throwing rocks. I'm a lefty and have decided only lefty flintlocks for me. RH percussion is fine. Also I don't hunt or shoot clay so no need for the ability to shoot shotgun loads. There is one exception and that is a HBC trade gun franken-repro but I would cheat and put the lock on the left and use a .45 rifled barrel, sorry!

Milsurpo I agree with your evaluation. If a Snider happens it will be a Sargeant's MK III. Now I know what to look for. I need shorter and lighter guns due to some physical problems. Retirement is great except for fixed income, arthritis and tremors, advancing age, gas prices, and crazy politicians.

The Snider is a direct point in firearm development when muzzleloaders actually became cartridge rifles. Also it is a very important gun in Canada's history. My BP gun hobby has instilled an unexpected Canadian history hobby as well, thanks to folks here.
 
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