Shooting off-hand...

Until the Angels Fall

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How hard is it to shoot a "precision" rifle off hand and get "precision" results? I don't mean to troll or anything but out of all the guns I have owned I have only shot my SKS off the bench for about 20 rounds...everything else I have ever shot I was either standing or kneeling. I ask because I do not plan to ever really shoot off the bench other then to sight in a gun...because I like to shoot (in my opion) in real world conditions. So should I look at shooting something like a Stevens 200 (modded) for my range/hunting needs or if I get a "precision" rifle...can I achieve the accuracy I will want off hand?

I do not mind finding a tree branch to rest a rifle on or if I have the right setup to use a bipod in the field I just like the quickness of off hand shooting.

Thanks, UTAF
 
I am no marksman, I despise the bench and prefer to shoot from positions like you do. When you hang out with black powder geeks, you shoot off your hind feet pretty much exclusively! The manly marksman is able to withstand the jeers and cat calls of foolish fellow firearm buffs and the larger groups that are honestly shot.

With my K98 war horse I was getting 4~6" slow fire, offhand. Sitting or prone would shave a couple inches off that. Snipers around here could probably do better but so what? Accuracy like that will put a deer's lights out and that's all that counts!

There is nothing funner in the world than enjoying an afternoon with the classic war horses and battle rifles. They make for excellent sport.
 
The key to offhand shooting is simple. To be a truly fine offhand shot you must be subconcious.
That basically means that there needs to be no conscious input from the shooter to break the shot.
when the sight picture is corect the shot must break without you thinking about it.The shot must break
when the holding pattern brings your cross hairs across the right part of the target.A big part for people
wrap their heads around is to NOT try to make the holding pattern smaller.Don't fight it because you will not
win.Instead accept its size and just focus on breaking the shot at the corect moment.
 
How "precision" can you get standing? Have a look at Metallic Silhouette shooting.
The 500m target is about 30 inches long and 18 inches high. And there are people out there that can reliably whack 5-for-5. So the target is about 6 MOA x 3.5 MOA.
 
I don't know if precision and off hand go together. Perhaps off hand and accurate?
I'm not sure I could shoot groups with my 18 lb F glass gun off hand and be able to do much more than "broad side of a barn" lol.
 
Apples and oranges. "precision" rifles are built with the intention of being shot from a rest. An accurate rifle i.e. a good quality hunting rifle or battle is lighter in weight and designed to be quick handling and have reasonable accuracy for its intended use.
 
Many tactikewl rifles are so heavy, and are stocked up in such a manner that they are just about useless for any position shooting.
"Precision" rifles are only built with the intention of being shot from a rest? I suppose that depends on what a person's definition of a "precision" rifle is. A benchrest rifle or Open F class rifle would be a really bad choice for any position shooting.
Longshot touched on the concept of the shot breaking without conscious input during the holding pattern. With a good position, training and practice, and with an appropriate rifle, the holding pattern can be substantially reduced in size.
 
The key to offhand shooting is simple. To be a truly fine offhand shot you must be subconcious.
That basically means that there needs to be no conscious input from the shooter to break the shot. when the sight picture is corect the shot must break without you thinking about it.The shot must breakwhen the holding pattern brings your cross hairs across the right part of the target.A big part for people wrap their heads around is to NOT try to make the holding pattern smaller.Don't fight it because you will not win.Instead accept its size and just focus on breaking the shot at the corect moment.

Well said!

Do not try and hold steady on your target. Accept the fact that the aim point is moving and try to catch it as it passes, without consciously letting off the trigger. The shot should be somewhat of a surprise. This all presupposes that we are talking of a stationary target and not a running one!

It helps if the rifle is a "sporter" as opposed to a heavier rifle made for bench use. It should have a reasonably good trigger, and I find for me a slightly muzzle heavy rifle works best, mindful of the overall weight.

That being said, and needing a peep or scope because of old eyes, my limited experience in milsurp shooting with my SKS-45 open sights is that my offhand scores are not significantly different from my prone, & sit or kneel scores. And SKS are not know to have great triggers.

This is an excellent thread and I think that the question is a very important one for those who still are hunters.
 
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"...achieve the accuracy I will want off hand?..." Depends on the rifle. Most are intended to be shot primarily prone, some are not. Not all matches allow a rest either.
In any case, an SKS is a long way from being a 'precision' rifle'. A Stevens 200 is a lower end hunting rifle. Accurate enough for hunting, not so much for target shooting. It'll do nicely for fun target shooting though. Mind you, it'll still require the right technique to shoot it well, off hand.
Toolman's 'F' class rifle would be nearly impossible to hold steady enough for off hand shooting. Holding 18 lbs up, never mind steady enough would take highly developed upper body tone.
"...nothing funner(SIC) in the world..." Machine guns and Sub-machine guns.
 
So often we have threads concerning equipment that it is refreshing to have one that deals with the mechanics of shooting.

While many target rifles are too heavy to shoot well off hand, this is not universally true. Still, a heavy rifle induces fatigue faster than does a lighter rifle and fatigue is the limiting factor when shooting off hand. The fastest way to bring on fatigue is to fight your natural wobble, a wobble that is magnified with powerful optics by the way. The fastest way to overcome fatigue is to accept the wobble and learn to fire your rounds quickly.

I do not shoot competitively, so I am free to pick my range, time, target angle, and the number of rounds I fire. Most often I fire two rounds. I simply shoulder the rifle, achieve my sight picture, put my finger on the trigger, and press. At the shot, I work the bolt as quickly as I can, reacquire the target and repeat for the second shot. If I can place each shot within 2" of one another at 100 yards and within 2" of my POA, I'm quite pleased with myself; sometimes I can, but not always.

But what is required to make a good off hand shot? Certainly your position must be as stable as possible, and the most stable position must take your natural point of aim into consideration. Begin by taking a boxer's stance towards the target. Your support arm must be directly below the barrel to limit any unintended windage error. Your firing hand assumes a strong handshake grip on the stock and the butt finds the pocket inboard of your shoulder. The rifle must be brought into your line of sight, rather than dropping your head to find the sight. When you have your sight picture, relax, close your eyes, then open your eyes to see if the center of your sight wobble has moved off target. If you are to the left of the target move your rear foot left slightly if you are to the right, move your rear foot to the right slightly to bring your sight on target. If you are too low, bring your rear foot slightly closer to your front, and if too high move it slightly farther away. Make all position adjustment in small increments.

Now that you have established a stable shooting position, you need to breath for each shot. If you find that you are running out of air, breath and start over. Much has been written on the proper aspect of breathing for optimum marksmanship, but it comes down to two schools of thought, the first which demands that the lungs be totally empty of air at the shot and that which suggests that the shot be taken at the natural respiratory pause. Those following the first approach claim that your position, particularly prone, is more repeatable from shot to shot than when shooting from a respiratory pause. I like the second approach better. I can shoot faster, because the shot can be made before I have forced all the air from my lungs, and my brain is not clouded by a lack of oxygen causing me to loose focus. As for position consistency, the natural respiratory pause is always with the same volume of air in the lungs, so any inconsistency to the position is purely theoretical and cannot be proven in practice. There are champion shooters who use both systems, but shooting on a natural respiratory pause is easier.

The wobble! If your sights are jumping all over the target or in some cases off the target, making the shot before you run out of air is an intimidating prospect. But this might help, and you can practice it with dry fire. When the wobble brings you onto the bull, or close to it, strongly tense up your stomach muscles. This is a direct violation of the rule that says you must relax for each shot, except that your mind and body are relaxed, just your stomach muscles are tensed momentarily. The effort produces an effect which might be recognized as a momentary brake. The wobble for that moment in time freezes in position allowing you to make the shot, if the brake occurs when the sights are on target. It requires some practice to master, but try it and see if your scores don't soar; 6s and 7s become 8s and 9s while 8s and 9s become 10s and Xs. If you find it doesn't work, trying it has cost you little and you can go back to steadily increasing pressure on the trigger as the sights cross the target.
 
Apples and oranges. "precision" rifles are built with the intention of being shot from a rest. An accurate rifle i.e. a good quality hunting rifle or battle is lighter in weight and designed to be quick handling and have reasonable accuracy for its intended use.

There are MANY different types of precison shooting disciplines, bench rest is only one, andthere are several categories there as well.
short range BR, long range BR, three position small bore, English match small bore, 300 meter free rifle, national course, palma, TR, Fclass,etc.
ALL take a high degree of precision to be won at any level.
Cat
 
Accept the fact that the aim point is moving and try to catch it as it passes, without consciously letting off the trigger.

The metallic silhouette shooters will tell you this as well. Don't try to hold it perfectly still, because that is impossible. You have to accept the motion and try to control and work with it.

Mark
 
There is a school o thought, which I am a fan of, that a heavy rifle with good balance is easier to shoot well offhand. The reasoning behind this is that smaller involuntary muscle groups have less effect on the momentum of the "wobble". This varies from person to person.

In order, I prefer: Prone, sitting, bench, kneeling standing. Practice in each position is important. Mapping your change in POI with position change also is important. For me personally, a kneeling group almost always hits 3-5 inches lower than a prone group. Standing and shooting has to be a second nature reaction. I actually spent a few intense sessions at the trap club and saw a marked improvement in my standing shooting, especially of the popup variety. With training you think about shooting less and tend to shoot better. "Let go your concious self, and act on instinct" Obi Wan Kenobi :p.
 
UTAF
You having experience of shooting standing will give you an idea of difficulty.
How precisely you want to be will be a product of training and equipment.
The best standing position is one based on contorting the body to create a position formed by bone to bone contact using muscles only to support the structure. Then practice and refine the position.As Lannie Bassham says, perfect practice is the key.If muscle is used to support the rifle, your shooting will be neither precise nor accurate. Keeping in mind your criteria for accuracy. If it's a beach ball at 50m or if it's a 10 ring of a 100m ISSF target.Both can be accurate shots but one takes a lot more precision for consistency. Even the best rifle silhouette shooters develop positions based on bone structure - 2.5 minutes to shoot 5 targets about 3-4 moa in size.
RIKA and SCATT are electronic feedback and data collection devices used by many shooters to train for international and major national events. Tracings in real time are used to show the movement of the rifle through the aiming and firing process.
The tracings of proficient shooters do not indicate that a passing through and shooting on the fly to be the best. A gradual settling of the position to a natural point of aim(NPA) and a very refined floating within the desired spot yields highest scores.
It is said that 3P (three position ) matches are won in the standing position.
Due largely because most competitors have very close scores in the prone and kneeling and standing separates the winners from the wannabees.
 
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It is said that 3P (three position ) matches are won in the standing position.
Due largely because most competitors have very close scores in the prone and kneeling and standing separates the winners from the wannabees.

When I started to shoot 3P competition in the 60's, my father would have me practise 3 times as much in the standing position than prone and kneeling , for that very fact that the higher you get off the ground, the harder it is to shoot .
His philosophy was " practice the stuff you are having trouble with, and the other stuff will take care of itself - the aggregate is what matters"
Although I won a few prone and kneeling events, I won far more aggs, simply because my standing scores were higher than normal!:D
Cat
 
I don't know if I'd call it a "precision rifle" however the RCMP rifle qualifications were at 100 meters with standing kneeling and prone. This was with a Winchester Model 70 in .308 with a Weaver 4x scope.

The preferred method was often the "Olympic" style with your weak hand having your palm out and along the bottom of the stock just forward of the trigger guard. This allowed you to be stronger than a typical hunter stance since your elbow was closer to your body (Think lever).

It also allowed you to cheat by putting your baton upside down in the holder and resting your weak side elbow on the top of the baton. :D

The breathing and the rest has been well covered.
 
How "precision" can you get standing? Have a look at Metallic Silhouette shooting.
The 500m target is about 30 inches long and 18 inches high. And there are people out there that can reliably whack 5-for-5. So the target is about 6 MOA x 3.5 MOA.

The chest on the Ram (500m) is more like 12" through the chest, with the curl of the horn above the head and the feet underneath (naturally). So 2 MOA in the vertical dimension and 6 East-West. Hold steady friends.

You can also try your hand at rimfire silhouette, shot entirely off your hind legs with a 22lr out to 100 meters on 1/5 size targets. Great game.
 
I don't know if I'd call it a "precision rifle" however the RCMP rifle qualifications were at 100 meters with standing kneeling and prone. This was with a Winchester Model 70 in .308 with a Weaver 4x scope.

The preferred method was often the "Olympic" style with your weak hand having your palm out and along the bottom of the stock just forward of the trigger guard. This allowed you to be stronger than a typical hunter stance since your elbow was closer to your body (Think lever).

It also allowed you to cheat by putting your baton upside down in the holder and resting your weak side elbow on the top of the baton. :D

The breathing and the rest has been well covered.

Or qualify at -45C in February and get the benefit of bulky clothes. Shot 250 in 6.5 minutes :D
 
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