shooting while kneeling

small gamer said:
Thanks for the invitation C&L. Like Jarlath said, I live about an hour and a half away. I will be shooting IDPA events at EESA and hopefully in Chatham as well. It's difficult for me to get out on weeknights because of my work schedule, but I will be shooting a qualifier at EESA next Wednesday evening.
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If you are going to shooting IDPA the issue is actually a lot simpler.

The knee you put to the ground will be determined by which side of the barricade you have to shoot around. As Hungry Beagle described.

On the right side of a barricade you want to place your right knee to the ground. This will give you the stablest platform as you slice the pie and give you the best mobility... left side of the barricade same thing - left knee down.

The other big reason you will want to employ this method when shooting IDPA is to avoid cover calls when shooting around designated low cover. Many of the cover calls you will see on designated low cover barricades or barrels will be caused by the shooter planting the wrong knee and exposing the opposite leg.

About the ony time I have gone to both knees is shooting a Standard Excercise that employeed kneeling and no cover was required. IF you do go to both knees maintain an upright body position and lean into your gun just as if you were standing. This will aide in recoil control as well as maintaining your ability to transition quickly and perform mag changes if required.

FYI - The IPSC squat is not allowed when shooting low cover in IDPA competiton. Also there are no Qualifiers in IDPA -this is a type of IPSC match.
IDPA employs the 'Classifier' to ensure all competitors are correctly 'classified' according to their skill level and choice of firearm.

Have fun at your first Classifier and remember - make those head shots :)

John
 
also don't over think kneeling. Your upper body position should try to be in the same position as you shoot standing, as much as possible. Obviously there are times where this won't work, but there are plently of times where it will be an option. Too many people think they need to do all sorts of weird things when they kneel, brace their arms against either a wall or their knee or something. you don't.
 
John in B.C. said:
The other big reason you will want to employ this method when shooting IDPA is to avoid cover calls when shooting around designated low cover. Many of the cover calls you will see on designated low cover barricades or barrels will be caused by the shooter planting the wrong knee and exposing the opposite leg.

John
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That is not a cover call IMO....low cover only means that one knee must be on the ground. The rule book makes no mention of making sure the other leg must be behind cover.

Calling cover on barrels is hard enough as it is...and I would not give a shooter a procedural or even mention it in the circumstances you describe.
 
Onagoth said:
That is not a cover call IMO....low cover only means that one knee must be on the ground. The rule book makes no mention of making sure the other leg must be behind cover.

Calling cover on barrels is hard enough as it is...and I would not give a shooter a procedural or even mention it in the circumstances you describe.
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If you are shooting the RIGHT side of a barrel and plant your LEFT knee you will find it very difficult to engage targets without exposing your Right leg/knee. In this case you will - or at least should- be called for a cover violation. I have seen this call made many many times and have been called on it myself.

If you are shooting that same position and plant your Right knee you will be better positioned to engage your targets. I have never seen anyone called for the other leg hanging out the other side of the barrel in this situation. As long as you are fulling behind cover on the side you are engaging you should be good to go...

John
 
John in B.C. said:
About the ony time I have gone to both knees is shooting a Standard Excercise that employeed kneeling and no cover was required.
John
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John when shooting a Standard Excercise no cover garment may not be required, depends on the course description.. You still have to maintain cover as defined in the rule book if cover is available when shooting a Standard Exercise.

Take Care

Bob
 
Onagoth said:
That is not a cover call IMO....low cover only means that one knee must be on the ground. The rule book makes no mention of making sure the other leg must be behind cover.

Calling cover on barrels is hard enough as it is...and I would not give a shooter a procedural or even mention it in the circumstances you describe.
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Matt the only time one is given leeway on the low cover call occurs when shooting around a barrel and then only the off side of the barrel.

Low cover requires one knee to be on the ground and no portion of the lower body and only half of your upper body maybe exposed to the target. MD's often allow the off side leg to be exposed when shooting around a barrel citing equity as we all are not built the same way and some would find it impossible to maintain cover behind the standard 45 gallon drum barrel. A shooter who choses to shoot from the right side of the barrel with his left knee on the ground would have to keep his right knee hidden from the target and that is what John us referring to I think.

As I mentioned earlier, the requirement to go to low cover on a stage should always occur at the end of a stage in IDPA.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
John when shooting a Standard Excercise no cover garment may not be required, depends on the course description.. You still have to maintain cover as defined in the rule book if cover is available when shooting a Standard Exercise.

Take Care

Bob
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I am afraid you misunderstood my statement. It referred to a specific Standard Excercise that we shot during the 2008 BC Prov. It had nothing to do with a cover garment - or I would have mentioned a cover garment.

I do not require a rule clarification on this issue so....

Anyhow..back to your regularly scheduled programming.

John
 
John in B.C. said:
I am afraid you misunderstood my statement. It referred to a specific Standard Excercise that we shot during the 2008 BC Prov. It had nothing to do with a cover garment - or I would have mentioned a cover garment.

I do not require a rule clarification on this issue so....

Anyhow..back to your regularly scheduled programming.

John
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You are right I assumed you were saying you didn't need to use cover on a Standard Exercise, I apologise. Using both knees in the situation you described makes sense, particularly if you have to do a reload.

Take Care

Bob
 
Lots of interesting information here guys, thanks. I need to get my lingo sorted out too. I did mean "classifier" rather than "qualifier" in my last post.
 
Canuck44 said:
Matt the only time one is given leeway on the low cover call occurs when shooting around a barrel and then only the off side of the barrel.

Low cover requires one knee to be on the ground and no portion of the lower body and only half of your upper body maybe exposed to the target. MD's often allow the off side leg to be exposed when shooting around a barrel citing equity as we all are not built the same way and some would find it impossible to maintain cover behind the standard 45 gallon drum barrel. A shooter who choses to shoot from the right side of the barrel with his left knee on the ground would have to keep his right knee hidden from the target and that is what John us referring to I think.

As I mentioned earlier, the requirement to go to low cover on a stage should always occur at the end of a stage in IDPA.

Take Care

Bob
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That's not the way I read the rule book.

Cover - 50% of the shooters upper torso must be behind cover while engaging targets and reloading.

Low cover - one knee must be on the ground.
Vertical cover - 100% of the shooters legs and feet must be behind cover.

The rule book doesn't say that feet and legs must be hidden when using low cover. Unless, there is a clarification that was release on this issue that I haven't seen.


Mostly I haven't seen this issue, because I don't usually designate a barrel as low cover (because a lot of people can shoot right over it while keeping one knee on the ground). As such, I usually designate a barrel as regular cover, like any wall or barricade. But if a MD does specifically designate a barrel as low cover, I don't see how a procedural can be assessed when a leg is sticking out.
 
John in B.C. said:
If you are shooting the RIGHT side of a barrel and plant your LEFT knee you will find it very difficult to engage targets without exposing your Right leg/knee. In this case you will - or at least should- be called for a cover violation. I have seen this call made many many times and have been called on it myself.

If you are shooting that same position and plant your Right knee you will be better positioned to engage your targets. I have never seen anyone called for the other leg hanging out the other side of the barrel in this situation. As long as you are fulling behind cover on the side you are engaging you should be good to go...

John
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If I was shooting around a barrel designated as low cover, I'd be shooting over top of it, not around it. However, even if I was shooting around it, legs and feet don't need to be hidden, at least not when the barrel is designated as low cover. See my point above
 
Of course you are absolutely correct. :rolleyes:

I now see that you are the absolute source of all knowledge IDPA. :onCrack:

I bow to your many years of knowledge regarding all issues regarding shooting sports. H:S:

You obviously are more interested in arguing than learning so fly at it. I think my original assessment of you was correct. :jerkit:

Do me a favor and put me back on your ignore list.
 
Onagoth said:
If I was shooting around a barrel designated as low cover, I'd be shooting over top of it, not around it. However, even if I was shooting around it, legs and feet don't need to be hidden, at least not when the barrel is designated as low cover. See my point above
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If you're shooting from behind a barrel that has been designated low cover and are shooting around the side of it you must be behind cover on the side you are firing from (behind cover being defined as 50% of your torso and your legs being hidden from view of the target)
Now if you are shooting over top of the barrel explain to me why you can't keep that same 50% and legs hidden......you are shooting from directly behind the barrel ......
 
Onagoth said:
That's not the way I read the rule book.

Cover - 50% of the shooters upper torso must be behind cover while engaging targets and reloading.

Low cover - one knee must be on the ground.
Vertical cover - 100% of the shooters legs and feet must be behind cover.

The rule book doesn't say that feet and legs must be hidden when using low cover. Unless, there is a clarification that was release on this issue that I haven't seen.

Low Cover includes one knee on the ground and no more than 50% of your upper torso maybe exposed to targets you are engaging and 100% of your lower body must be behind cover.

Cover can be either horizontal in nature or vertical. Horizontal cover allows the shooter to expose only 50% of his upper torso. For vertical cover such as corners of walls or barrels cover includes 50% of your upper body and 100% of your lower body. This includes both shooting positions ie High Cover (Standing) and Low Cover (Kneeling with at least one knee on the ground).

Mostly I haven't seen this issue, because I don't usually designate a barrel as low cover (because a lot of people can shoot right over it while keeping one knee on the ground). As such, I usually designate a barrel as regular cover, like any wall or barricade. But if a MD does specifically designate a barrel as low cover, I don't see how a procedural can be assessed when a leg is sticking out.

Another solution to this issue is simply to write into the stage description that all shots must be made from the side of the barrel and the shooter is not allowed to shoot over top of the barrel. I have seen clubs lay a piece of wood on top of the barrel to ensure shooters keep their gun below the top of the barrel. An even better solution is to avoid the use of barrels in stages if you can use low walls instead.
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If you want an official clarification of the rule, send me an email: Bob.Bonenfant@idpa.com and I will be happy to provide same. I bolded my reply for ease of reference.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
...write into the stage description that all shots must be made from the side of the barrel and the shooter is not allowed to shoot over top of the barrel. I have seen clubs lay a piece of wood on top of the barrel to ensure shooters keep their gun below the top of the barrel.
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This is what we do in the MDPL. Good general advice for kneeling in this thread - as stated above if you don't need to kneel in IPSC, dont.

Another consideration that is valuable in both sports is to avoid crowding cover/walls especially when kneeling. If you can still get your hits while keeping back from cover/walls then that is generally better.
 
bclinehand said:
If you're shooting from behind a barrel that has been designated low cover and are shooting around the side of it you must be behind cover on the side you are firing from (behind cover being defined as 50% of your torso and your legs being hidden from view of the target)
Now if you are shooting over top of the barrel explain to me why you can't keep that same 50% and legs hidden......you are shooting from directly behind the barrel ......
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Lol.....and this is why I am so familiar with this rule :)

When I was new to the sport Bob and bclinehand gave me more than a few procedurals as I learned.....
but I learned :D

John
 
You guys don't seem to understand what I am saying.

What I am saying is this....where in the rule book does it say that feet and legs have to be hidden when shooting from low cover. I understand you've typed it in your posts, but I cannot find it in the rulebook. What I am looking at is the literal definition of cover...

Cover is defined in the rule book as:

More than 50% of the shooter's upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall or barricade, 100% of the shooter's legs and feet must be behind cover.

I don't think I am alone in reading this and thinking...ok, for any shooting or reloading, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover. Check.
For low cover, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover and one knee must be on the ground.
And for vertical cover, like a wall, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover and 100% of the legs and feet must be behind cover.

The literal definition of cover only talks about legs and feet when using vertical cover, like a wall or barricade, and doesn't mention it when defining low cover.
 
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