shooting while kneeling

John in B.C. said:
Of course you are absolutely correct. :rolleyes:

I now see that you are the absolute source of all knowledge IDPA. :onCrack:

I bow to your many years of knowledge regarding all issues regarding shooting sports. H:S:

You obviously are more interested in arguing than learning so fly at it. I think my original assessment of you was correct. :jerkit:

Do me a favor and put me back on your ignore list.
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I've been ignoring most of what you said ever since I tripped across your posts on CGN....as I typically do with people I can't ####ing listen to without wanting to bang my head off something
 
bclinehand said:
If you're shooting from behind a barrel that has been designated low cover and are shooting around the side of it you must be behind cover on the side you are firing from (behind cover being defined as 50% of your torso and your legs being hidden from view of the target)
Now if you are shooting over top of the barrel explain to me why you can't keep that same 50% and legs hidden......you are shooting from directly behind the barrel ......
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I was just trying to explain how I typically see it when people are shooting. Any time a barrel is used and its designated as low cover, I've seen many shooters just shoot over top the barrel with one knee on the ground...it saves them from slicing the pie with there are multiple targets. It's still using cover because 50% of the upper body is behind the barrel and one knee is on the ground.

But, I don't really think this is within the spirit of IDPA, so I usually just say the barrel is cover, and it has to be used to the maximum extent possible, similar to the shooting port situation.

I got in an argument with Ken Soucie one time because he couldn't explain to me why I can't stand in front of a window ahd engage all targets. The rulebook (before the addendum) didn't specifically address this issue (although there was a rule clarification on it that I wasn't aware of). My thinking was that even if I stand in front of the window, 50% of my upper body is hidden and 100% of my legs and feet are, so I must be adequately using cover. Now we all know that doesn't fly now, but at the time, it didn't make any sense to me based on the way the old rule book was written.
 
Onagoth said:
I've been ignoring most of what you said ever since I tripped across your posts on CGN....as I typically do with people I can't f**king listen to without wanting to bang my head off something
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Cool.....don't let me stop you then.......

Bang away...... :bangHead:

One time......at band camp...................

:bangHead: :bangHead: :bangHead:
 
Onagoth said:
You guys don't seem to understand what I am saying.

What I am saying is this....where in the rule book does it say that feet and legs have to be hidden when shooting from low cover. I understand you've typed it in your posts, but I cannot find it in the rulebook. What I am looking at is the literal definition of cover...

Cover is defined in the rule book as:

More than 50% of the shooter's upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall or barricade, 100% of the shooter's legs and feet must be behind cover.

I don't think I am alone in reading this and thinking...ok, for any shooting or reloading, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover. Check.
For low cover, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover and one knee must be on the ground.
And for vertical cover, like a wall, 50% of the upper body must be behind cover and 100% of the legs and feet must be behind cover.

The literal definition of cover only talks about legs and feet when using vertical cover, like a wall or barricade, and doesn't mention it when defining low cover.
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Matt what you are missing is low cover can be behind horizontal or vertical cover. Think of a low wall and the stage instructions are to engage targets in tactical priority (near to far) from low cover as opposed to going to the corner of a wall (vertical cover) and the instructions are to engage the targets by slicing the pie from low cover. In the first example you may only expose 50% of your upper body. Your legs would be hidden by the entire wall. In the 2nd example only 50% of your upper body may be exposed to the target you are engaging and no part of your lower body. The same rule applies if you are standing be the corner of a wall. The rule book isn't entirely easy to read but that is the offical position of how cover is applied. If any portion of your lower body is exposed to the target you are engaging from the low cover position you get the penalty.

Take Care

Bob
 
Onagoth said:
But, I don't really think this is within the spirit of IDPA, so I usually just say the barrel is cover, and it has to be used to the maximum extent possible, similar to the shooting port situation.
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Well I think you ought to consider being more clear in your instructions. As the stage designor you should stipulate whether or not the shooter is expected to shoot around the barrel or from over top of it and if you are specifying low cover or not. Much depends on what you want to test in the shooters ability. in the absence on instructions to shoot around the side of the barrel the shooter certainly could shoot over top of it. From an equity stand point would that be fair to shooters who are not tall enough to shoot over top of the barrel. The answer of course is no and one reason why you see stage instructions requiring the shooter to engage targets from either side of the barrel and from low cover.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Matt what you are missing is low cover can be behind horizontal or vertical cover. Think of a low wall and the stage instructions are to engage targets in tactical priority (near to far) from low cover as opposed to going to the corner of a wall (vertical cover) and the instructions are to engage the targets by slicing the pie from low cover. In the first example you may only expose 50% of your upper body. Your legs would be hidden by the entire wall. In the 2nd example only 50% of your upper body may be exposed to the target you are engaging and no part of your lower body. The same rule applies if you are standing be the corner of a wall. The rule book isn't entirely easy to read but that is the offical position of how cover is applied. If any portion of your lower body is exposed to the target you are engaging from the low cover position you get the penalty.

Take Care

Bob
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This makes sense based on the way the rule book reads.
 
Canuck44 said:
Well I think you ought to consider being more clear in your instructions. As the stage designor you should stipulate whether or not the shooter is expected to shoot around the barrel or from over top of it and if you are specifying low cover or not. Much depends on what you want to test in the shooters ability. in the absence on instructions to shoot around the side of the barrel the shooter certainly could shoot over top of it. From an equity stand point would that be fair to shooters who are not tall enough to shoot over top of the barrel. The answer of course is no and one reason why you see stage instructions requiring the shooter to engage targets from either side of the barrel and from low cover.

Take Care

Bob
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That was what I was trying to get at. In the CoFs, I usually specify that targets must be engaged from either side of the barrel. This effectively results in the barrel being used as vertical cover...and specifying low cover on a vertical barricade isn't really required because the shooter will usually have to kneel just to be adequately covered.

I avoid specifying that the barrel as low cover, because the decision seems to fall to the shooter whether or not it is horizontal cover or vertical cover. As you said, a shooter treating a low cover barrel as horizontal cover is advantaged over a shorter person. Similarly, a large shooter who is shooting over top of a low cover barrel (horizontal cover) may be too wide to adequately cover their legs and feet....not really fair to assess a procedural in that circumstance.


While this issue can be resolved with clear CoF descriptions, I still don't think a shooter can be assessed a procedural for a foot hanging out when the CoF simply only requires that a barrel be used as low cover. Because any fast shooter is going to place one knee on the ground and shoot over top the barrel.
If the shooter is required to use the barrel as vertical cover with one knee on the ground, then it makes sense to give a cover call if a leg is sticking out.
 
Onagoth said:
.

I avoid specifying that the barrel as low cover, because the decision seems to fall to the shooter whether or not it is horizontal cover or vertical cover. As you said, a shooter treating a low cover barrel as horizontal cover is advantaged over a shorter person. Similarly, a large shooter who is shooting over top of a low cover barrel (horizontal cover) may be too wide to adequately cover their legs and feet....not really fair to assess a procedural in that circumstance.

While this issue can be resolved with clear CoF descriptions, I still don't think a shooter can be assessed a procedural for a foot hanging out when the CoF simply only requires that a barrel be used as low cover. Because any fast shooter is going to place one knee on the ground and shoot over top the barrel.
If the shooter is required to use the barrel as vertical cover with one knee on the ground, then it makes sense to give a cover call if a leg is sticking out.
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Matt an unwritten rule in IDPA is that you don't assess the penalty on the non shooting side of the barrel due to the fact large or tall shooters would not be able to comply. From the shooting side of the barrel the penalty is applied and if it isn't your SO's are not applying the rule correctly. This is also can be true if you use an open port at the bottem of a wall and the club only has so many walls. Cover is taken from the shooting side of the opening with no regard for where the legs are extended on the off side. I think you will find most MD's, if they choose to use a barrel in a stage will want the shooter to shoot from the side of the barrel - remember equity and as I have said earlier there is no expectation for the shooter not to expose his legs/behind on the non shooting side of the barrel.

If you choose to allow or request the shooters to shoot over top of the barrel then no portion of the lower body can be exposed to the target and a penalty would be in order if the shooter does expose his lower portion. You avoid this situation if you have the shooter shoot from either side of the barrel. Over top, the large shooter is treated unfairly as his body type may exceed the width of the barrel. From the side he isn't.

I hope this gives you a better understanding on how the rule is applied.

Take Care

Bob
 
Yeah, I shoot both too and both have their fair share of dicks as well...egotistical asshats who can't engage in a discussion without turning it into a pissing match.
 
Ha ha....

That's good....easier on your head :bangHead:

Just for laughs let's recap shall we???

Newbie asked an excellent question....

A lot of very experienced shooters gave him some top notch advice....

Noticing that said newbie was intending to shoot IDPA I offered to put all this advice into an IDPA perspective....

YOU decided to call BS on my advice because YOU didn't understand the rules or how they were applied to low cover...

YOU were subsequently shown to be full of ####....

Now your panties are all bunched up around your anus.....

Well....glad I could help :D

:bangHead: :bangHead: :bangHead:

John
 
Steve David said:
Jeez and I could never figure out how new shooters get turned off. Finally it has been made clear to me.
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Thanks for your concern SD, but don't worry about turning off a new shooter, because I've been shooting for somewhere around 40 years, I'm just a handgun newbie, in a sense. I had a couple of handguns back in the 80's -90's which I never used. I know that you are likely referring to turning off a new action pistol participant, but the exchange of opinions in this post is not an issue to me. I've been around on this earth long enough to know from experience that no matter what interest people share there will sometimes be heated discussions revolving around issues related to it. In case there are other action shooting newbies like me following this thread, I hope they don't lose sight of the fact that action shooting games are intended to be fun. My intent in getting involved in IDPA is to improve my pistol skills in a safe environment, and have fun. None of the superfluous discussion posted in this thread will have any effect on that.
:cheers:
 
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