Short .22LR's
- Thread starter Windrummer
- Start date
Are you also a machinist?
Well you are asking for opinions, so here goes; your plan is to hunt with that monstrosity? You would likely destroy the accuracy of both weapons by attempting to combine them... you are likely to create a restricted weapon (which would disallow hunting with it) OR, and more likely, a prohibited weapon... and to accomplish a task that is easily (and far better) accomplished with existing platforms and/or procedures ie. Combo guns, swap barrel units or custom reloading.... why dont you save yourself the time, money and aggravation and invest in a reloading set-up... it will open up a whole new world of shooting for you and you can play around until you make up the perfect small game squib for every rifle you own.... JMO.
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
^^^ this ^^^
Yup, pretty much exactly that but with hunting components rather than "black" components. Sick find man, where is that?
I was a machinist before I made the switch to engineering, yes
. I'm anticipating having to design and machine a couple of custom brackets to attach the rimfire action or forestock to the centerfire barrel. Since this might totally mess with the centerfire's accuracy (messing with barrel vibration, not good...) I'm considering leaving the forestock on and mounting to it instead.I have considered those options, and here is the reasoning that led me away from them. Combo guns sacrifice the ability for quick follow-up shots (we do our best to not need them, but things do happen) or taking multiple game (a group of grouse or rabbits). Swap barrel units can be a decent option if you are choosing what caliber to shoot before you head into the field: I'm looking to have both game hunting options on me at the same time. Custom reloading is by far the strongest competitor to my custom-combination-gun concept, especially as I already reload my own ammunition. It has the potential for a mixed-up load accident, leading to an unethical shot on game with an under-powered bullet. This can be avoided by being more careful and using clearly different reloads for each type of ammo, and storing them separately, but the chance is still there. This option does still reduce the chances for quick shots upon game acquisition, as I might have the wrong ammo in the chamber (I prefer to walk around un-chambered) or next up in the mag. I would have to grab a round of the other type, open the chamber, load, close, and acquire. Which can easily spoil my chance at quicker-moving game like rabbits or wary grouse. These are just my thoughts, thanks everyone for your responses
Have you used squib rounds yourself? I'm curious to hear how you like them, as I haven't had the chance to talk to anyone yet who has.
Great to know. I do want to add a ''short'' 22mag to my collection.
Moparlover
CGN frequent flyer
duct tape. use lots of duct tape
For a game getter of this sort why does it need to be a multi shot semi auto? You're going to end up with a lot of extra bulk and weight.
In the US the perfect answer would be a nice rimfire handgun on your hip. But up here we're stuck with other options. My own preference would be to hold down the bulk by using as small and simple and action and barrel as I could. This means something the action and barrel stripped from a Savage Rascal or a Cricket.
Another option is the small and compact Winchester 1902 single shot. The bolt and rest of the "receiver" is machined out of the rear of the barrel stock. So it's a one piece gun from stem to stern. And small as blazes. Being all steel it's a bit heavy though. But if you are willing to accept the challenge you could machine up the whole action from an aluminium bar that is drilled through and sleeved with a rifled liner and which is made with something suitable at the rear to allow the bolt to lock up without stretching the metal from the recoil. Such an action would be quite light. But because you're making it yourself and not a licensed gun maker it has to have the barrel portion from the face of the bolt to muzzle crown set to 18+ inches.
Then there's the weight. The Dlask barrel is short. But it ain't all that light. Look up the size of the Charger pistol. You're talking about that much weight, or close to it, being stuck onto your gun.
And let's consider the sight line. For close in shooting the height for the scope over the bore axis plays havoc with sighting in for a range of distances. So unless you use a different sighting setup for the rimfire add on you're going to have a hard time with close in shots unless the game is right at the exact distance the add on rimfire action is set for. Or would you use a second set of sights?
I personally feel that a more useable and effective option would be a single shot youth size rimfire in an back mounted scabbard. Something like a Henry Mini Bolt is very light and the one I've got for kid's to shoot has proven to be VERY accurate. Or if that's not compact enough then a Henry rimfire Mare's Leg. in a leg holster or back scabbard.
In the US the perfect answer would be a nice rimfire handgun on your hip. But up here we're stuck with other options. My own preference would be to hold down the bulk by using as small and simple and action and barrel as I could. This means something the action and barrel stripped from a Savage Rascal or a Cricket.
Another option is the small and compact Winchester 1902 single shot. The bolt and rest of the "receiver" is machined out of the rear of the barrel stock. So it's a one piece gun from stem to stern. And small as blazes. Being all steel it's a bit heavy though. But if you are willing to accept the challenge you could machine up the whole action from an aluminium bar that is drilled through and sleeved with a rifled liner and which is made with something suitable at the rear to allow the bolt to lock up without stretching the metal from the recoil. Such an action would be quite light. But because you're making it yourself and not a licensed gun maker it has to have the barrel portion from the face of the bolt to muzzle crown set to 18+ inches.
Then there's the weight. The Dlask barrel is short. But it ain't all that light. Look up the size of the Charger pistol. You're talking about that much weight, or close to it, being stuck onto your gun.
And let's consider the sight line. For close in shooting the height for the scope over the bore axis plays havoc with sighting in for a range of distances. So unless you use a different sighting setup for the rimfire add on you're going to have a hard time with close in shots unless the game is right at the exact distance the add on rimfire action is set for. Or would you use a second set of sights?
I personally feel that a more useable and effective option would be a single shot youth size rimfire in an back mounted scabbard. Something like a Henry Mini Bolt is very light and the one I've got for kid's to shoot has proven to be VERY accurate. Or if that's not compact enough then a Henry rimfire Mare's Leg. in a leg holster or back scabbard.
I colour the head stamp of my squib loads with a permanent blue sharpie marker to avoid confusion... I have used squibs with a dozen calibers.... .223, .243, .260, 7-08, .308, .30/30, .357, .358, 9.3, .44 & .45/70 to name a few. And they all will take the head off a grouse without exploding the breast, they also will head shoot hares without turning he bunny inside out... coons and foxes go down cleanly also.
IMO.... your plan would create a prohibited weapon... I would look to other options first.
I rather dislike the naming of the reduced power loads as "squib loads". It suggests a no powder load and a blocked barrel bore. What I've seen used in other similar discussions is "small game loads" or something along that line.
The trick to the SGL's is finding a bullet that works with the twist rate of the barrel to still give acceptable accuracy. But one just doesn't know until they try. Also generally the SGL's are used in at MUCH closer distances. So if they shoot a more open pattern it may not be the end of the world as long as they are still "minute of grouse head" at the sort of distances required.
But lots of folks have done just this. So it's hardly that hard or unlikely.
And let's consider too that those add on packages are pretty much never done when ultimate accuracy is the goal. One doesn't need a whole lot of accuracy for a grenade launcher. And those folks that stick handguns or other guns under the barrel are doing so for giggles and hardly as an effective option. Well, not unless they're a mall cop....
The trick to the SGL's is finding a bullet that works with the twist rate of the barrel to still give acceptable accuracy. But one just doesn't know until they try. Also generally the SGL's are used in at MUCH closer distances. So if they shoot a more open pattern it may not be the end of the world as long as they are still "minute of grouse head" at the sort of distances required.
But lots of folks have done just this. So it's hardly that hard or unlikely.
And let's consider too that those add on packages are pretty much never done when ultimate accuracy is the goal. One doesn't need a whole lot of accuracy for a grenade launcher. And those folks that stick handguns or other guns under the barrel are doing so for giggles and hardly as an effective option. Well, not unless they're a mall cop....
Now that you mention it, I will have to try it out again, it was an impulse buy and haven't shot it much.
T
T
Call them what you want... we have always called them squibs... As in; weak, reduced loads considering caliber... works fine for us... call them small game loads if you wish... and in truth, they are sometimes NO POWDER loads, as in the case of primer charged pellets fired from our Hornet rifles... which are quite accurate and will take grouse at 25 yards with ease.
@BCRider great response, thanks for the thoroughness of your information. For sights, I was thinking of a 3-9 scope on my the centerfire, with see-through rings so I can use the iron sights, which are set for the rimfire. So as long as my mounting doesn't destroy their accuracy, I'd have a rimfire with irons (good for 0-50yd on small game) and a centerfire with scope for the rest. As far as action weight goes, that is definitely a concern. Since this is intended as a bush gun, I'm concerned my design will end up being a 12lb monstrosity that is too unwieldy for the bush. Keeping the barrel short is step one to reduce that. Since my design will place the action of the .22 where the forestock of the centerfire normally is, I gravitated towards semi-auto for simplicity of operation, since racking a bolt or lever action that far forward could be difficult. A single-shot like a rascal is interesting... It doesn't maintain the repeat-shot ability that I have in mind, but if it is the only way to keep the weight down enough to make this thing practical, then that might be the way to go. Thanks!
Both units will have to be in excess of 26"... they will be viewed as individual units no matter what sort of attachment you use... therefore the centerfire will have to have an unmodified factory barrel OR one in excess of 18" and the rimfire will have to have an OAL of 26"+... do you really want to carry TWO 26"+ weapons attached together in the woods??? If you already reload, you have your answer sitting on your reloading bench.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
Im sorry but this sounds like a terrible idea, if it could even be legally done. It sounds terribly heavy and cumbersome, and will look ridiculous.
You'd be better off splitting your hunts into two. Big game or small game. Or carry a shotgun with slugs and shot. Or just get a combo gun and focus on making the first shot count.
You'd be better off splitting your hunts into two. Big game or small game. Or carry a shotgun with slugs and shot. Or just get a combo gun and focus on making the first shot count.
I'm not planning on just tossing a couple bolts in and saying "they are one weapon". I'd use rivets or press-in pins or some other form of semi-permanent fastening. Obviously I don't want to lug around two 26" rifles through the forest, that's basically the whole point of this project, dude.
@hoytcanon how did your load development and range testing go for developing your squib loads? Do you have to run dual-sights because of the close range and slow velocity squibs vs. full-power loads? Like I said, you're the first guy I've talked to who has used them extensively so it is nice to hear about your experiences.
Thanks
Thanks
Squibs are easily developed with TB or H4895 using 70%+ and 60%+ of case capacity formulas respectively. I love 4 grains of TB with 45 SP's in .223 for small game... and 8 grains TB with 150 SP's in .30/30. In some cases I use mil-dot or LR scopes which have multiple reference points... you just test at the range to determine which point to use at which distance. For example, my coyote gun in .223 is zeroed 2.5" high @ 100m... when using the squib load I count down three dots at 20 yards and 4 dots at 40 yards... both are bang on and I can hunt grouse heads or bunny eyeballs with confidence.
