Short .22LR's
- Thread starter Windrummer
- Start date
A slingshot might be an easier option?
It's an interesting idea though, I'll be following to see what you come up with.
Well, I finally got out with this little rifle, as someone had previously asked about the accuracy with the short barrel.
Firstly, let me say I have been consistently underwhelmed with the accuracy of any of my .22 rifles. When I read about guys shooting an inch at 100 yards, I am wondering what I am doing so wrong.
But with this SBR with a crappy 3-9 scope on it I was getting within an inch of my POA at 50 yards, without even trying to hard. I believe with a better rest and some patience, I could get a 5 shot group under 1". For this short rifle, I don't think that's half bad.
If anyone is thinking scoping this rifle is silly, I kinda felt that way, but it works. with the iron sights, which are quite close together I had not as much luck.
Tim
I really wanted to shoot mine with irons but like yourself found the sight radius of the OEM irons too short. Ended up scoping mine with a 22mag Simmons 4x fixed power and getting excellent results inside 75yrds.
Status Update
Good evening to anyone who's still following this thread,
Since my last post almost a year ago, there have been several important developments. I bought an acreage (woohoo!!!), so I finally have some space to work in (and to test whatever I come up with, since I have a full quarter-section). And as of today I have the rifle that I'm going to use as the base of this build. It is a Savage Model 340 bolt-action chambered in 30-30. I was hoping to use a .30-06 as the base because I already have the dies and reload for that calibre, but the rifle came up and it was too great to pass up on. And I'm not expecting to shoot this gun enough to really have to worry about reloading for it to save cost, and it is intended as a bush gun so maximizing accuracy isn't really required either.
For the under-barrel-mounted rimfire, I'm still planning on using a .22LR, but have found that I won't need to pursue one with an especially short barrel for the build to be viable. The Savage 340 measures 22" from the tip of the barrel to the start of the box magazine, and for comparison my Savage Mark IIG .22LR measures 27" from the tip of the barrel to the rear of the trigger guard. So I could have it nested almost completely within the length envelope of the 30-30 (and still within the legal minimum length of 26" for a non-factory weapon) by just cutting back the buttstock of a regular .22LR. So that's where I'm at for now; I still need to buy a cheapie .22LR (no way I'm sacrificing my Mark II), and plan ahead a little more and the build can start. More pictures and updates to follow as progress is made.
Hmmm, I'm having some trouble figuring out how to add a picture of the gun to this post (image is stored on my desktop). Can anyone help me out?
Good evening to anyone who's still following this thread,
Since my last post almost a year ago, there have been several important developments. I bought an acreage (woohoo!!!), so I finally have some space to work in (and to test whatever I come up with, since I have a full quarter-section). And as of today I have the rifle that I'm going to use as the base of this build. It is a Savage Model 340 bolt-action chambered in 30-30. I was hoping to use a .30-06 as the base because I already have the dies and reload for that calibre, but the rifle came up and it was too great to pass up on. And I'm not expecting to shoot this gun enough to really have to worry about reloading for it to save cost, and it is intended as a bush gun so maximizing accuracy isn't really required either.
For the under-barrel-mounted rimfire, I'm still planning on using a .22LR, but have found that I won't need to pursue one with an especially short barrel for the build to be viable. The Savage 340 measures 22" from the tip of the barrel to the start of the box magazine, and for comparison my Savage Mark IIG .22LR measures 27" from the tip of the barrel to the rear of the trigger guard. So I could have it nested almost completely within the length envelope of the 30-30 (and still within the legal minimum length of 26" for a non-factory weapon) by just cutting back the buttstock of a regular .22LR. So that's where I'm at for now; I still need to buy a cheapie .22LR (no way I'm sacrificing my Mark II), and plan ahead a little more and the build can start. More pictures and updates to follow as progress is made.
Hmmm, I'm having some trouble figuring out how to add a picture of the gun to this post (image is stored on my desktop). Can anyone help me out?
I picked up a Norinco JW 15 a 'trapper',had to scope it with an older 2.5 X bushnell banner because I just can't use open sights anymore,but it's just as accurate as my 24'' barrel Norinco JW 25,or my BRNO.All I need is 'minute of grouse head' accuracy,and it delivers.The only noticeable difference between the short barrel and the long barrel is the short barrel is considerably louder.I found 'quiet 22' shells are very accurate and perfect when you don't want to disturb game.
Carries nicely,too.
Carries nicely,too.
Congrats on getting your own hunk of land! That is the dream!
For posting the image, go to http://imgur.com/ click on the blue upload section in the top left, than you can drag and drop the picture or look for it and click it, then it will upload to that site. Than once you see your image in a new page, right click on it and copy image url, than in your post here on CGN Click on the little picture of a tree in the reply box, paste your image's url and hit enter.
You should start by duct taping the two rifles together so you have a weight match for the projected project. Then carry this lump around your acreage for a while to get a feel for the bulk and balance.
Frankly in reading this whole thread over again I'm firmly of the opinion that you'd be far better off with some sort of single shot rimfire folder on your back for the small game. Or maybe one of the very light .410 folding shotguns. It will be far less cumbersome overall.
As much as I'm not at all a fan of Chiappa guns their Little Badger would be the perfect solution to your needs. You may not see it that way because you're in love with the idea of a two in one but the reality is that you'll end up with that 12 lb monster that you're trying to avoid if you carry on with the two guns in one plan. Not to mention that reaching the trigger for the second gun will put you into an odd position which is less than idea for accuracy.
If you insist on going on one option which MIGHT work from a legal standpoint would be a custom made stock with two inlets to hold the two actions. that way if broken down neither action is a full "gun" by itself. But this would be a legal definition sort of question that I'd probably want to put to the CFO for opinion. By putting the two more or less side by side and with the .22 on an angle a simple partial rotation of the stock on your shoulder could set you up to sight over the top of the .22 side of this conglomeration. Yet when shouldered straight up and down the .30-30 would be correctly lined up to deal with the greater recoil.... not that a .30-30 has all that much to begin with.
The idea of the angle is so the .22 can be offset to the side to allow the two triggers to be closer together so your shooting posture isn't too wacked out. But by being off to the one side you can still access the floor plate or the box magazine of the center fire side.
I'd still be looking at a single shot action for the .22 side of things. Far less lumpy and light. And you don't really want a big lump of weight over to the side where it will offset the center of gravity of the mess by a lot. As it is you're going to get a lot of sideways recoil in the center fire due to the offset of the weight.
If you went with an under mount to keep the added mass vertically in line then you're going to need to set the rimfire action down below and ahead of the center fire receiver so you don't block the floor plate or maintain access to the box magazine depending on the center fire rifle. And to keep it legal that means the stocks will be very cumbersome. Keep in mind that the actions are set up with the idea that the receiver and barrel fit ON TOP of the stock. You're looking at wanting to set it into the stock upside down.
If you go with two separate 26 inch setups which lock together then you're looking at a LOT of weight placed well forward. So while it may squeak in at under 12 lbs total weight you're talking about 3 to 4 additional pounds of weight up front that you need to hold up for a good shot with the center fire setup.
Keep in mind too how this will affect your ability to shoot accurately under hunting conditions for free standing or tree bracing. You owe the game that much respect. Here again this is something you can try before you go too far. Figure out the different options for over/under and side by side and lash a dummy simulation weight to the gun and go try it. Carrying AND shooting from the typical hunting positions.
And then maybe try it with a Chiappa Badger like shape and weight on your back pack or otherwise strapped to your body and see how it does for weight and carrying.
One way or the other you ARE going to be carrying that other gun. It'll be on your center fire gun or on your back. You simply are not going to remove that simple fact.
Frankly in reading this whole thread over again I'm firmly of the opinion that you'd be far better off with some sort of single shot rimfire folder on your back for the small game. Or maybe one of the very light .410 folding shotguns. It will be far less cumbersome overall.
As much as I'm not at all a fan of Chiappa guns their Little Badger would be the perfect solution to your needs. You may not see it that way because you're in love with the idea of a two in one but the reality is that you'll end up with that 12 lb monster that you're trying to avoid if you carry on with the two guns in one plan. Not to mention that reaching the trigger for the second gun will put you into an odd position which is less than idea for accuracy.
If you insist on going on one option which MIGHT work from a legal standpoint would be a custom made stock with two inlets to hold the two actions. that way if broken down neither action is a full "gun" by itself. But this would be a legal definition sort of question that I'd probably want to put to the CFO for opinion. By putting the two more or less side by side and with the .22 on an angle a simple partial rotation of the stock on your shoulder could set you up to sight over the top of the .22 side of this conglomeration. Yet when shouldered straight up and down the .30-30 would be correctly lined up to deal with the greater recoil.... not that a .30-30 has all that much to begin with.
The idea of the angle is so the .22 can be offset to the side to allow the two triggers to be closer together so your shooting posture isn't too wacked out. But by being off to the one side you can still access the floor plate or the box magazine of the center fire side.
I'd still be looking at a single shot action for the .22 side of things. Far less lumpy and light. And you don't really want a big lump of weight over to the side where it will offset the center of gravity of the mess by a lot. As it is you're going to get a lot of sideways recoil in the center fire due to the offset of the weight.
If you went with an under mount to keep the added mass vertically in line then you're going to need to set the rimfire action down below and ahead of the center fire receiver so you don't block the floor plate or maintain access to the box magazine depending on the center fire rifle. And to keep it legal that means the stocks will be very cumbersome. Keep in mind that the actions are set up with the idea that the receiver and barrel fit ON TOP of the stock. You're looking at wanting to set it into the stock upside down.
If you go with two separate 26 inch setups which lock together then you're looking at a LOT of weight placed well forward. So while it may squeak in at under 12 lbs total weight you're talking about 3 to 4 additional pounds of weight up front that you need to hold up for a good shot with the center fire setup.
Keep in mind too how this will affect your ability to shoot accurately under hunting conditions for free standing or tree bracing. You owe the game that much respect. Here again this is something you can try before you go too far. Figure out the different options for over/under and side by side and lash a dummy simulation weight to the gun and go try it. Carrying AND shooting from the typical hunting positions.
And then maybe try it with a Chiappa Badger like shape and weight on your back pack or otherwise strapped to your body and see how it does for weight and carrying.
One way or the other you ARE going to be carrying that other gun. It'll be on your center fire gun or on your back. You simply are not going to remove that simple fact.
Thanks a bunch for the help. Living out in the country here is definitely different from my teenie tiny apartment in the city; absolutely loving it so far. There is so much to do and I always feel like I have energy for it. Instead of just plopping down and plugging in for hours on end. Here's the pic of the Savage 340 I was trying to post.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
the big one for me is hunting for big game you cannot have a rimfire rifle in most cases best option is a over/under combo gun with a .30 cal/12ga combo that way you would be legal 100%
I would not mess that 340 up btw not a very common gun
I would not mess that 340 up btw not a very common gun
Hey BCRider,
Wow, thanks a bunch for your response. There is a lot of information and thoughts there, and I know it took some considerable time investment to think and write that all out, and I appreciate your contribution. I just weighed the 30-30 and it is 7.2lb. I also weighed my unmodified Mark II G bolt-action .22LR (it has a scope mounted on it as well) and it weighs in at 7.2lb too. They both had their trigger-locks on for weighing, but I'd say that just accounts for the weight of ammo (they were both unloaded, duh haha), so we have a total of 14.4lb if the two were just mashed together as-is. Now, I'll lose some weight out of there by cutting off most of the buttstock of the .22, but I'll also gain some back with whatever mounting rig I come up with. So the rough overall weight I'm looking at with the current plan is probably about 13-13.5lb. For comparison, my .22-250 with the 26" heavy-barrel and scope comes in about 12lb. The big difference here is obviously that my .22-250 isn't exactly envisioned for humping around in the bush for 6 hours. The weight of the gun is the biggest outstanding challenge to overcome right now, I think.
The overall size of the combo gun isn't actually as bad as you might think. Check out these pictures of the layout of the 30-30 next to an air rifle I have laying around. I couldn't use my .22 because it has a scope mounted on it and that would mess up the spacing, but the air rifle measures almost exactly the same, so the layout is valid. After the first picture, I cover the air rifle's stock with a towel to hide the stock portion that I'm planning to chop off. As you can see, 26" OAL comes almost exactly to the back of the trigger guard. In the pictures, I pulled 30-30's box mag almost all the way out, to show the area I need to keep clear for it. The .22's trigger is not actually that far from the 30-30's. I can't say for sure until I lash them together and do some test-fitting as you say, but I think it will not be an issue to reach the second trigger. Now, the air rifle doesn't have a bolt, whereas the .22 I choose might, so I need to keep room open for that, but there's nothing saying I have to be able to remove the 30-30's box mag while the .22's bolt is back.
Since I don't really want to muck about with the .30-30 to try and cut its weight down at all (like drilling holes in the stock or anything), I'm left with a 7.2lb base plus whatever weight the .22 and mounts add. My Mark II (which weighed in at 7.2lb too) is listed by Savage as weighing 5.5lb naked. The Youth version of the same rifle weighs 5lb (and has a 2" shorter barrel, so it would only stick out 2" past the .30-30, bonus), but that still leaves a pretty heavy combo. A Savage Rascal weighs 2-5/8lb, but brings with it some other issues as well. It is only a single-shot rifle, which is not the end of the world but that means I'd have to walk around with it chambered if I don't want to miss quick opportunities on small game. And I'm not super keen on walking around in the bush with a round in the chamber; not really my style. Also, because the barrel is so short on the Rascal (and because I'm really trying to keep the OAL of each gun over 26", because classifying them as inseparable and thus a single gun over 26" long has me a bit nervous), I'd have to leave a big chunk of stock on it, moving the trigger far forward and putting me in that awkward shooting stance you mentioned. But on the other side it would lead to a combo gun that all together probably weighs only between 10-11lb... So right now I'm not sure of exactly my next step. I'll do a little more thinking and see what I come up with.
Wow, thanks a bunch for your response. There is a lot of information and thoughts there, and I know it took some considerable time investment to think and write that all out, and I appreciate your contribution. I just weighed the 30-30 and it is 7.2lb. I also weighed my unmodified Mark II G bolt-action .22LR (it has a scope mounted on it as well) and it weighs in at 7.2lb too. They both had their trigger-locks on for weighing, but I'd say that just accounts for the weight of ammo (they were both unloaded, duh haha), so we have a total of 14.4lb if the two were just mashed together as-is. Now, I'll lose some weight out of there by cutting off most of the buttstock of the .22, but I'll also gain some back with whatever mounting rig I come up with. So the rough overall weight I'm looking at with the current plan is probably about 13-13.5lb. For comparison, my .22-250 with the 26" heavy-barrel and scope comes in about 12lb. The big difference here is obviously that my .22-250 isn't exactly envisioned for humping around in the bush for 6 hours. The weight of the gun is the biggest outstanding challenge to overcome right now, I think.
The overall size of the combo gun isn't actually as bad as you might think. Check out these pictures of the layout of the 30-30 next to an air rifle I have laying around. I couldn't use my .22 because it has a scope mounted on it and that would mess up the spacing, but the air rifle measures almost exactly the same, so the layout is valid. After the first picture, I cover the air rifle's stock with a towel to hide the stock portion that I'm planning to chop off. As you can see, 26" OAL comes almost exactly to the back of the trigger guard. In the pictures, I pulled 30-30's box mag almost all the way out, to show the area I need to keep clear for it. The .22's trigger is not actually that far from the 30-30's. I can't say for sure until I lash them together and do some test-fitting as you say, but I think it will not be an issue to reach the second trigger. Now, the air rifle doesn't have a bolt, whereas the .22 I choose might, so I need to keep room open for that, but there's nothing saying I have to be able to remove the 30-30's box mag while the .22's bolt is back.
Since I don't really want to muck about with the .30-30 to try and cut its weight down at all (like drilling holes in the stock or anything), I'm left with a 7.2lb base plus whatever weight the .22 and mounts add. My Mark II (which weighed in at 7.2lb too) is listed by Savage as weighing 5.5lb naked. The Youth version of the same rifle weighs 5lb (and has a 2" shorter barrel, so it would only stick out 2" past the .30-30, bonus), but that still leaves a pretty heavy combo. A Savage Rascal weighs 2-5/8lb, but brings with it some other issues as well. It is only a single-shot rifle, which is not the end of the world but that means I'd have to walk around with it chambered if I don't want to miss quick opportunities on small game. And I'm not super keen on walking around in the bush with a round in the chamber; not really my style. Also, because the barrel is so short on the Rascal (and because I'm really trying to keep the OAL of each gun over 26", because classifying them as inseparable and thus a single gun over 26" long has me a bit nervous), I'd have to leave a big chunk of stock on it, moving the trigger far forward and putting me in that awkward shooting stance you mentioned. But on the other side it would lead to a combo gun that all together probably weighs only between 10-11lb... So right now I'm not sure of exactly my next step. I'll do a little more thinking and see what I come up with.
From the 2015 Hunter's and Trapper's Guide: "It is a violation to hunt big game with a firearm or metal projectile of .23 calibre or less". Since I'm hunting them with a 30-30 (that only happens to have a .22 underneath it), I should be fine. It would take a CO with an ego-to-brains ratio that is off the charts to deem that I'm hunting big game in violation of that clause. Not that that means it can't happen... haha.
Yeah, that's something I haven't mentioned yet... After test-firing the 30-30 a couple times, I may be falling in love with it and it might break my little heart too much to hurt her, haha. We'll see though. One thing is that someone has already mucked up the stock by refinishing it with a really ####ty varnish job, and all I'm planning on touching is the stock (cross-drill a couple of holes through the forestock to run bolts through for the mounting plates).
- Location
- Saskatoon Saskatchewan
You are also not allowed to hunt upland game(in sask anyway) with a centerfire. Trying to explain this contraption to a c.o. will not be a good time. The way you're planning it they could easily argue you're hunting small game with centerfire and large game with rimfire. Even squib loads are a no-no in sask. I keep my shorty 10/22 on the quad in case of grouse. I might use my pellet pistol next year.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
if you have ammo for both with you that would cause some problems no matter what.
They could argue that just as easily as saying I have a hunting knife on my belt so obviously I must be trying to hunt deer with a knife. Or I'm wearing boots so I must be blidgeoning them to death. The gun I plan to make is immediately apparent in purpose to any logical person. It is no more a violation than the zwilling guns suggested by so many commenters here: if I have a commercially available combo gun that has something like a .30cal barrel and a .22LR barrel, they could just as easily say I intended to shoot a grouse with the .30cal and a moose with the .22, same as you claim they could with my gun. I would win that challenge with laughable ease, because the charge is ridiculous on its face.
Although I still think this is a silly idea it's you and your guns and in the end it's all just a hobby for grins and giggles.
I'll be all eyes for the posts and pictures of how it goes if you start out on this. And if I can help you out with hints on how to do a few things I'm there for ya. Just don't ask me to actually like it.....
I'll be all eyes for the posts and pictures of how it goes if you start out on this. And if I can help you out with hints on how to do a few things I'm there for ya. Just don't ask me to actually like it.....
