Short barrel- heavy or light bullet?

What's the best pickup truck for achieving best possible gas mileage?
What's the best sedan for hauling lumber?

These questions aren't to make anyone feel bad, but they parrallel the original question and are to illuminate something of an irrational question. The short barrel would go better with a 30-30, or .358 Winchester round. If your looking for best velocity out of a 16.5" barrel, your mostly going to achieve higher noise and flash as you bring the powder charge up. I would suggest a 22-23" barrel for that caliber. Are you looking for a thick bush gun, or are you trying to cover more open terrain or both?

Again, not trying to ruffle any feathers, looking for more background?
 
I really do not understand the fascination that folks have with rifles with bbls shorter than 20".

Too much blast, handle like a salad fork, plus they look weird.
 
It's nice to pack a rifle around that's as small and light as a .22 rimfire but packs some punch. I hunted deer with a Ruger Compact in 7.62x39 and it was a joy to carry. It also fit across behind my quad box without hanging off the sides. I had success with that rifle but the bullet drop at 300 yards became a crapshoot and now I want something flatter shooting but in the same size, and stainless. It may not point that smoothly and might look a little funny but it's the best thing I've found to pack around the bush. I realize that the .260 is hindered by a shorter barrel but the numbers still look pretty good. It just got me wondering about optimizing a load for the shorter barrel and the reasons why different components might or might not help.

As far as asking more questions relating to why different components work the way they do, I guess we're just relegated to accepting the standard answers without delving into the whys, old boy's club style.
 
Ok, makes sense a bit.

Well, first, the 7.62x39 and 260 R.E.M., although both shorter are also a lot different. The 7.62 is closer to the
30-30 for performance and does well with a slow and heavy format, as you say a great caliber to carry in a short
Package in the bush.

The 260 although short functions at higher pressure in a narrower projectile.

The deal is this: two projectiles of the same weight, one wider (say .358) vs narrower (say .260 or .243) will be accelerated very different. The pressure behind it has more surface area to push on. Think of holding your finger over a pinhole leak at 50 psi, versus holding your hand over a 3"pipe at 50 psi.

With the 260 by nature of its design it needs more length to get it up to speed (more time for chamber pressure to push on it), otherwise it leaves the pipe and there is still a lot of energy that hasn't been applied to velocity which shows up as noise and flash.

I would suggest these alternatives, go the other way, have a look at the .338 federal at around the 200 grain size, it may do well at 17-18"

Compare the .308 Winchester derivatives, .243, .260, 7-08, 338 fed, .358 win to get a sense of weight/diameter/velocity

Or
Consider a 260 R.E.M. With a 20" barrel and a shorter action, like the R.E.M. 600 or 788 or similar, and change the stock to one that works with shorter length of pull.
 
This makes sense but would a faster burning powder be more efficient in a shorter barrel? Since the bullet spends less time in a short barrel would we not want to get the powder burned and the bullet up to speed quicker?

And maybe a heavier bullet with the fastest burning powder it can handle pressure-wise would be the ticket since the slower acceleration would give the bullet more time in the barrel and thus more powder burn time.

I'm talking mainly about efficiency and am not too concerned about the bullet weight. I assume that a slow powder would have have more muzzle blast and wasted energy regardless.

The thing to keep in mind is that the race for velocity is futile. If you use a bullet that will expand at the velocities you are using, you'll be fine. A hundred, or even 200 fps more will very, very seldom make a critter any deader. Choose a couple of bullets based on game size and velocity, and practice, practice, practice until you know the trajectories by heart. If you're making longish shots, a good rangefinder is a valuable tool.

The good ol' 308 is used regularly to bring down deer-sized critters (2-legged) at 1 km. with stunning effectiveness. But these guys practice like crazy.
 
PL.....May I suggest you might like to do some reading on internal ballistics. It's not that we are just giving you the "old boys club" standard line, it's that the answers are quite complex and although one may understand the whys, which I think I do, its not that easy to reiterate to another always. There are some very good books on the topics of internal and external ballistics........The Bullets Flight by F.W. Mann with 3 updates is a good place to start. The original treatise on the topic is a book by James Atkinson Longridge entitled Internal Ballistics. It was written in 1889 but is worth reading for it's initial understandings into internal ballistics.
I have 1/2 a dozen or more but I cannot remember titles or authors right at this minute and I think the books may still be packed in a box I have yet to open, from the move, or I would send them to you. I'm sure there are newer more up to date books on the topic, however the principles of spitting a projectile from a tube by igniting solid fuel and using the expanding gases hasn't really changed much in a few hundred years. The ability to measure certain aspects of it's acceleration and pressures have, but not the basic principle.
I find this field and external ballistics fascinating and used to read every book I could find or buy, now that I think of it some the books I read were lent to me, which would explain why I can't find them. Once you get a feel for why certain powder and bullet combinations (weights) do what they do, it opens a whole new realization and understanding of burn rate relationships to case capacities, bore diameters and bullet weights. Possibly it's just me, but I do not find this understanding easy to explain to others...........
I'm going to give it a bit of a go here though. I'm going to use some over simplifications which some may take exception to but I think you will get the basic understanding.
The reason slower powders give the highest velocity regardless of barrel length (within reason) is because you put more of it in a case, therefore you have started with more energy. If you assume that all gunpowder has the same overall energy per grain (which it more or less does) then you can see that more gunpowder in a given case has more energy to give. The differences between different burn rate gunpowders is at what rate they release this energy during their transition from solid to gas. The defining factor as to how much powder one can put behind a given bullet weight is known as the peak average pressure which has been designated for all commercial cartridges in NA by an organization known as SAAMI. I won't get into the finer points of SAAMI, you can Google it for all it's information and structure. The peak avg pressure is the limiter and is also a time sensitive factor which is determined by the powder burn rate. Faster burning powder consumes more of it's mass and changes it to gas in a shorter time frame than a slower, more inhibited powder, therefore it takes less time to reach it's maximum avg pressure (MAP) meaning a shorter steeper pressure curve in the barrel. This creates a shorter thrust stroke against the base of the bullet even though the MAP is the same as slower powders. This MAP is also reached using less powder thus having less energy to accelerate the bullet.
In doing some testing using extended flash tubes I was able to move the pressure curve even further down the barrel of a rifle thus giving a longer thrust stroke again and increasing velocity. By lighting the powder at the base of the bullet and keeping the powder in the case longer while burning as well as removing the weight of the powder from the initial projectile mass I was able to lengthen the burn pressure curve of extremely slow powders. This also has the advantage of less sandblasting effect on the rifle throat as the powder isn't being forced from the case through the funnel of the neck and sandblasting the leade. But I digress............
The length of time and barrel in which the MAP happens is one of the factors in setting up what is known as barrel nodes. Bullet weight, time of travel (in barrel) and muzzle pressure are other factors in the production of barrel nodes. The more uniform the barrel nodes from shot to shot the more consistently the bullet will exit, thus the greater the potential for accuracy. One of the best indicators of this consistency is the extreme spread (ES) of the velocity at which the bullet exits the muzzle. It has been my experience that in very short barrels (16 1/2" is very short for a rifle) that the lowest ES is usually achieved with more mid rate burning powders than with the slowest acceptable powders for a given cartridge. This is also dependent though on another factor known as expansion ratio of a cartridge.
The expansion ratio is the rate the volume in the barrel (behind the bullet) expands as the bullet moves down the barrel. (I'm terrible at explaining expansion ratio) . It is easy to illustrate though.........take a 458 WM, as the bullet moves approximately 2" down the barrel the volume left behind the bullet is approximately doubled. The powder must produce it transformation to energy much faster to use this greatly expanded area in which it is allowed to burn. Therefore the optimum powders in a 458 must be relatively fast burning. As I'm sure you can see the opposite situation would be a 6.5X300 Wby or 7mmRUM or a 22-284 which have a huge capacity for powder with a very small hole through which the expanding gases may escape (while pushing the bullet of course). These cartridges have a very low expansion ratio and are what are considered overbore cartridges. These cartridges require a very slow powder so as not to hit MAP before adequate acceleration has occurred. These cartridges also produce the longest pressure curve of all due to the fact that the bore is so small in relation to the amount of energy one can store behind the bullet (case capacity).
 
Last edited:
Possibly it's just me, but I do not find this understanding easy to explain to others...........

I don't think it's just you, it takes whole books, sometimes several books, to explain what you're talking about. Maybe you should write some books? In your spare time.

To propliner: there are several people here trying to get you to understand that your questions are both very complex, and, to the average shooter/hunter not very important. The complexities make a shooting forum a very unsuitable method for finding answers (c-fbmi's advice about reading some books is a better option) and the very small differences in performance produced by many of the factors about which you seem very concerned are not worth the "overthinking" that you have been accused of doing about them.

Re-read some of the posts here. Do some real research in libraries and on the web rather than expecting explanations on a forum. Most importantly, go out and shoot lots of different bullets, from different sized cases, with different powders, in different barrels, at different targets, and pay attention to what happens. Get some experience, and worry less.
 
PL........my dissertation was quite simplified and there are a great many other factors in the bullets travel from standstill in the case to several thousand fps within 16-30" of barrel. Bullet bearing surface, frictional coefficient, intensity of ignition, even the number of rounds down a tube changes the internal ballistic characteristics of that barrel and where and when and how much powder of which rate, create your MAP and subsequently your velocity and potential accuracy.
Those of us who believe we know a lot about this still realize that a lot of this knowledge is based on some assumptions and a lot of stuff that we just have to agree happens even though we can't see it happen. Again it is difficult to explain, it's just like my trade....electricity. We can see it's effects, we can smell it's effects, we can most certainly feel it's effects but virtually all we know about electricity is theory, internal ballistics is very similar..........if this happens, then that MUST have happened, logic dictates. I believe it was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle through his famous character Sherlock Homes who said " When you have eliminated the obvious, the probable, the improbable and the possible what you are left with is the impossible, but there you have it" (That is a paraphrase by the way) Such is a great deal of electrical theory as well as internal ballistics.
It is an ongoing and intensely interesting subject. Many have a much greater understanding of it than I, and I would highly recommend reading their work if you have the interest and this knowledge would be of value to you.
Chemists working for powder companies are continuously try to re-engineer powder inhibitors to not just change the burn rate but to change the rate once the burn has initiated. Velocity gains would be immense if they could get a powder to maintain it's MAP over a much extended time frame (we're talking milliseconds, possibly microseconds), which to date has not been possible.
 
Last edited:
you lose bore volume in the short barrel and efficiency goes down. to get it back if you switched to 308 you would have more bore volume, power and shoot as flat . of course its a tradeoff between the 260 and 308 but you have already given up the longer range advantage of the 260. the 308 kicks pretty good though.
 
I agree with Boomer on pick your bullet but then look for a powder to regain the velocities you lost.

I shoot a lot of 14" - 21" barreled rifles totally prefer them to the long barrels that mostly stay in the safe now due to hearing issues from a total lose of hearing in my right ear at age 4 I do wear molded earplugs that amplify sound but cut off any sound over 85 decibels so the louder shot is irrelevant to me.

Example I shortened a 26" barreled Rem 700 chambered in 375RUM to 21" I wanted to load 260gr Accubonds my regular go to powders did not give me the standard velocities I wanted to keep so I switched to RL17 powder and bumped right back to almost exactly the velocities I was getting with the 26" barrel.

I haven't checked load data but a powder like RL17 just might work at bumping up velocities in your rifle.
 
Back
Top Bottom