Short-barrel O/U pack shotgun (vs SxS, pump)

Grodz

Grodz

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I'm looking for a short-barrelled (18.5-20") 12-gauge Over/Under shotgun, for use as a compact pack/hike/canoe/kayak "go-to" gun. I'm looking for a gun that's 20" or less when stowed, and under 36" (but not less than 26") when assembled and ready to fire (ie. non-restricted). It has to have removable choke tubes, for versatility in shooting a variety of shot/slugs at different ranges. Ideally, it would also have a rib, to allow the installation of various after-market slug sights (and conversion back to bead sights as required).

I had considered coach guns such as the Outlaw shotgun from CanadaAmmo, but other than the fact that it has fixed chokes and no rib, I prefer OU to SxS, due to better barrel alignment (better when shooting slugs) and thinner profile. I also prefer not to have external hammers, since I plan to carry this gun in a scabbard, and external hammers may snag and interfere with drawing the gun.

I also considered the Grizzly shotgun with 12.5" barrel. The fixed magazine tube makes it less compact when stowed than an OU or SxS, unless a removable stock is used. I tend to prefer a fixed stock, since I've tried sliding stocks on rifles, but they often tend to be too high, preventing proper eye alignment for use with bead or rifle sights.
I'm also trying to stay away from tactical-looking guns (ie. with pistol grips and collapsible or folding stocks). I feel a more conventional-looking gun is easier to justify as a "go-to" gun, since it would generally be regarded as a suitable for hunting. That's also the reason for my preference for 18.5" barrels vs shorter ones. As well, double-barrelled shotguns are probably the least likely to become banned, restricted, or prohibited if our gun laws should become less favourable.

The closest match for my requirements seems to be the Stoeger Condor Outback:
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_condor_outback.php

However I don't like the fact that its barrels are non-selectable (ie. the bottom barrel fires first, followed by the top barrel). I would much prefer to have the option of 1st-barrel selection, so that I can have different types of shot/slugs in each barrel, or different chokes, and select the barrel accordingly.

Can the Outback be modified to make it selectable? I assume that this could be done, since the Condor Supreme is selectable, but I inquired with Stoeger and they do not offer this service. Is this the type of work which could be readily accomplished by a gunsmith?

Alternatively, is there another type of shotgun which would be suitable for my requirements?
Or, is there a longer-barrelled OU shotgun, with selectable barrels, whose barrels are thick enough to allow them to be shortened, and threaded for choke tubes?
I'm thinking here about the Turkish shotguns offered by Marstar, but I don't have enough information regarding these models:
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-Turkish-SG/TK-Over&Under-index.shtm
They seem to be Kral or Tristar (are those the same?):
http://www.kralav.com/en/urunSergile2.asp?urunID=317
http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/product_hunter.html

As a footnote, I wonder if CanadaAmmo/Dominion Arms would be interested in offering this type of shotgun. They seem to be dedicated to offering short-barrel, non-restricted shotguns (which is excellent), and judging from the response to their Grizzly, Outlaw, and Backpacker shotguns, there would likely be a market for short-barrelled Over/Unders as well. A combo model, with 18.5" and 12" barrels (with removable choke tubes, of course), would really be the icing on the cake!

I appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Update: Stoeger Condor Outback - initial report (post #19)
 
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Grodz said:
I'm looking for a short-barrelled (18.5-20") 12-gauge Over/Under shotgun, for use as a compact pack/hike/canoe "go-to" gun. I'm looking for a gun that's 20" or less when stowed, and under 36" (but not less than 26") when assembled and ready to fire (ie. non-restricted). It has to have removable choke tubes, for versatility in shooting a variety of shot/slugs at different ranges. Ideally, it would also have a rib, to allow the installation of various after-market slug sights (and conversion back to bead sights as required).
Click to expand...

You envisage requirements that = a custom firearm that would involve substantial $ figure - likely exception (read likely not doable) would be the requirement for sights that you've expressed.

Alternately, there is the Outback that you had mentioned but that already comes with fixed irons. If you are not using the shotgun for wingshooting then I don't really see an issue with the fixed factory sights provided. You may wish to check with a gunsmith like Precision Arms (ON) concerning tweaks for bbl selection.
 
I'd find an old beater, with select fire and shorten the barrel to 18.5-20", this way you'll get exactly what you want, personally i'd just go with a rem 870 with a 18.5 barrel with wood stock for the "justied go to" look.

matt
 
I used an inexpesnive SXS when practicing to shoot a double rifle before my safari. I discovered that the little gun actually printed quite well out to 50 yards or so. When a SXS is opened, there is equal clearance to both chambers where as the OU tends to crowd the bottom chamber. The disadvantages of the Stoger are as you say the nonselectable triggers, but also the fact that the gun uses an extractor rather than an ejector, so if you find that you are in a hurry it means reloading is slower.

I would look for an inexpensive SXS with duel triggers. If you want rifle sights, they can be added.
 
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hi grodz. i see u r still searching 4 your special shotgun. good 4 you . matty86suk seems to have the right idea .i have a couple of over unders one being the zolli we talked about in your thread on stoegers outback. the other gun is a cut down browning citori that the previous owner managed to blow the barrel.that is why the barrels are bobbed.this gun takes down easily shoots slugs to point of aim and has taken a few deer .has a selector switch and safety on top of the stock. it is cylinder bore. easy to carry nothing to snag ..try tradeex in quebec on this site..they have a lot of used over unders priced reasonable .good guys to deal with . they could answer your questions
 
Good day Farmer and Matty,

Thank you for your advice.

I already have a 1959-vintage Browning Superposed Field, but it has fixed chokes (F, M), and 28" barrels.
From responses I received to my initial enquiries in the Gunsmithing thread (great support from our fellow CGNers, BTW), the barrels on this model are thin, but shortening them may leave enough barrel thickness to allow threading for chokes.

I know it's an expensive gun, but I already have it, so that part is free. I need to see how much the gunsmithing costs would be, and consider the risk of messing-up my current gun.

I had considered the Rem 870, but it’s too long with a fixed stock, due to the non-removable mag tube (approx 30”; I’m looking for 20” or less when disassembled).
Is there any way to have a fixed stock which can be easily attached and removed, while still being strong enough to take the shotgun’s recoil, without having the tactical look (ie.not an M4-type collapsible, or Knoxx stock)

Ahsan Ahmed,
Modifing the Stoeger Outback to become selective may be a good option as well. I’ll look into it.

Boomer,
Do you have recommendations for rifle sights for SxS shotguns?
 
Ellwood Epps has a used Zoli Apache for sale for $569. Its an O/U with 20" factory barrels threaded for chokes. It sound like just the gun you are looking for.
 
I tried to find the link for the Zoli Apache, but was unsuccessful (search engine doesn't seem to work for me). Could you plse provide the link?

Edit: found it, on the Ellwood Epps website. I thought it was listed on CGN. Thanks
 
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shelby said:
Ellwood Epps has a used Zoli Apache for sale for $569. Its an O/U with 20" factory barrels threaded for chokes. It sound like just the gun you are looking for.
Click to expand...

The o/u in question has an underlever for opening the breech. Believe the firearm also comes with a wrench for take-down purposes.....not sure how convenient that mechanism may be in terms of ease/simplicity. Funny, I've considered inspecting that closely so many times over the past months I've been there but forgot at the last moment. Looks to be in good shape though.

Personally, I'd go with Boomer's suggestion - the caveat, however, one needs to find an inexpensive sxs and determine first that it prints to acceptable point of aim with slugs. Sight installation could occur subsequently.

The SPR 220 (hammerless design) coach gun has the potential to be a good candidate (only CYL bbls though).....built sturdy with bbls regulated reasonably well, rib high enough to fashion dovetails.....haven't validated yet if the rib is strong/solid enough for that kind of work. I've considered turning mine into a fantasy double rifle :) for deer (SG/ML areas). Having said all that, if the bbls are well regulated, one would'nt have much trouble hitting out to 50 yds with just a bead only.
 
Grodz said:
Boomer,
Do you have recommendations for rifle sights for SxS shotguns?
Click to expand...

I don't know what your personal tastes run to, but there is quite a selection in the Brownells catalog. My preference is a ghost ring and post, but you might prefer an express style sight. When I was shooting that little SXS I just used the bead, which was good enough for my purposes at the time.

The make was Lesever (sp?). I borrowed it from Pounder who subsequently sold it, and now I wish I had kept it. It was a 23/4" chambered 12, it had extractors rather than ejectors, and the barrels I think were on the thin side for threading in chokes. The barrels had been cut from their original length and a bead was added, but the web between the barrels had not been filled.
 
is your browning a take down . take the forend off. the barrels should come off at the receiver. your gun can now be put in a case the longest part being the barrels.
 
Yes, it can be taken apart, but the barrels are 28" (the stock and receiver are 19.5"), and I need for both parts to fit in a 20" pack, hence the need to shorten the barrels (as well as to permit the installation of choke tubes).
 
Boomer,
I was considering something along the lines of the TruGlo slug sights:
http://www.truglosights.com/content/products/firearm/sluggun_rifle/pro_series.asp

... or their Turkey/Deer sights:
http://www.truglosights.com/content/products/firearm/turkey/tru_point_xtreme.asp

I prefer sights that are low, so I can maintain the same cheek weld as for the bead sights. Some of the ghost ring sights I've tried were too high. The advantage of the TruGlo sights are that I can remove them if I find that they don't work well for me (compared to a sight which is permanently welded-on).

I'm not sure if similar sights can be found for the SxS ribs.
 
Ahsan,
I haven't found any removable sights that will fit a solid rib, but here's an idea which may work.

I've seen a Zoli SxS with a vented rib. If you can have a vented rib added to your SxS, you could then install (or remove at will) aftermarket adjustable sights, such as the TruGlos.

You may have to adjust the comb height so that your eye is correctly positioned relative to the new rib.
 
After much research and deliberation, I decided to buy the Stoeger Outback.

condoroutbackpacked.jpg


The short barrels and removable chokes were essential criteria for me, and I couldn't find anyone who would take on barrel shortening and threading at a reasonable price. So that ruled out the multitude of other O/U options, which generally had 28" barrels, and in some cases fixed chokes.

Its chokes are standard Winchester/Mossberg/Browning-Invector, which are readily-available. These will also be compatible with the threading of the Dominion Arms Grizzly, which I will also purchase when they become available once again.

I can work around the limitations of the non-selective trigger. I would have preferred to have the top barrel fire first (first shot closer to point of aim), but I'll test the groupings with slugs at various ranges and determine best POA for the bottom barrel.

The inertia trigger works well. I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to fire the 2nd barrel if the 1st had a misfire.
There are two workarounds to this situation:
1. Flick the safety back and forth (sets the trigger for the 2nd barrel), or
2. Smack the butt of the shotgun to reset the trigger by inertia (works well; not much effort is required).

The trigger pull is quite good.

Having extractors instead of ejectors is also not a problem. With practice, I can eject the shells manually quite rapidly, and upon further consideration I prefer not to have my shells flinged out of the chambers; there will likely be many cases where I wish to hang on to them instead.

I really like the balance and swing. It feels lightweight and lively. Should be great for quick, instinctive shooting.

Things I'd like to improve:
- the action is quite tight, making the shotgun a bit difficult to open, particularly when both barrels have been fired and the hammers need to be reset.
- the safety is somewhat difficult to manipulate.
Hopefully these will improve with use. Otherwise a bit of gunsmithing may be in order.

The length of pull is a bit long for me (I prefer around 13.5", provided that a good drop-at-comb is maintained). Should be easy to fix.

Accessories being considered:
- scabbard/transport case (probably home-made)
- .22LR inserts (still considering different options; see the following thread)
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328562
- barrel weight kit (if required, to smoothen the swing for skeet/clays/trap)

I'll be trying it out soon on the range for patterning and slug grouping.
Range report to follow...
 
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