Short barrel performance

kodiakjack

kodiakjack

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So, there's a discussion over in general right now about what guns we'd all buy if they scrapped 12.6, and of course, a lot of folks are drooling over short barreled revolvers and pistols. Now, I understand that the shorter the barrel - the closer the front and rear sights are - and the more challenging it is to shoot it accurately.

But what about performance? Knocking a few inches off a rifle barrel reduces it's length by maybe 10%. Not enough to drastically affect performance. But, knocking 3 inches off a 5 inch revolver must really play with the bullets velocity. Are there seperate balistic charts for every barrel length of particular guns?

I know the "shorts" are for self defence only - but what kind of energy could even the biggest of bullets carry, with only 2 inches to accelerate?:confused:

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Over many years in the US, gunwriters did studies on the effect of barrel length in pistols on velocity. 6" bbls. seem to be most effective with .38/.357 cartridges, but the differences are in the 100 to 200 fps range. Thus a 2" bbl. will seriously affect velocity and therefore energy, but still will be effective at very short ranges (not to mention the effect of the muzzle blast alone). 9mm cartridges can still work well in 3" to 4" bbls., but obviously aren't going to be travelling as fast as they can from a 10" bbl., which some believe to be optimal for this cartridge. It's really a question of what distance you shoot at, and how much punch you expect from a pistol cartridge, as opposed to the convenience of carrying a handgun with a short barrel. Pistol cartridges normally just don't have very much energy in them. The Seecamp .32 is built for the Winchester Silvertip cartridge, which is an aluminum-clad, relatively high-velocity hollowpoint. But the factory states clearly that the pistol is intended for use "across a card table". It's meant for defense and will never equal a .45, but at the intended distances, even the .32 ACP has merit.
 
Unscientific anecdotal information:

It seems to me that the quality of that short barrel, and the shooter dynamics, make a lot of difference in shot placement. Forget how many foot pounds you have for a moment, I rather enjoy actually hitting the target. Some of my restricted guns aren't accurate, while some of my 2" snubbies are amazing at 10 meters. Caliber also seems to lend itself to greater accuracy. .32 is more accurate, maybe because I'm not flinching and anticipating pain, while I somehow can't shoot nearly as well with a .40. There are of course lots of opinions about the potential accuracy of various cartridges.

And each gun is different, with variations in manufacture. My super-accurate 2" can be buried with me, it's on the "never ever sell" list.

Seecamp accuracy is quite acceptable, for point shooting without sights, at 5 meters. Big card table. At least mine will make 6" groups, neatly centered, from rapid offhand less-than-excellent shooting. And the little Colt Junior (2"), Beretta 950, Walther model 9, Baby Brownings etc. all (so far) make very acceptable little groups at 5 meters, much tighter than my restricted 9mm. Of course at 20 meters the 9mm is still on the paper ...

Here's the press-release version:

Shooting with a short barrel amplifies shooter error. A short barrel dramatically points out any flaws in shooting style and mechanics. Prohibited length handguns are critical to better sporting and competitive shooting. Canadians are being severely handicapped in the development of world-class marksmen by the absence of this vital tool, the short barrel, due to the ineffective and poorly thought out "prohibited" class.
 
Short barrelled revolvers can be amazingly accurate, as most people have mentioned, they are as accurate as you make them. Watch a PPC Snubby match sometime, it's almost scary the accuracy they get.
 
I agree with "gunzik" and "enefgee" about the accuracy of short-barrelled guns. When I lived in the US I was licensed and carried a Seecamp. I also could get reasonable groups at considerably more than card table range. I really liked that little gun and miss it. My comments were just about velocity, a quality inherent in the gun and the cartridge. Accuracy (regardless of barrel length) speaks to practice, and "gunzik's" observations, in my opinion, are right on the money.
 
I can't comment on what it would be like to shoot that bobbed barrel, silly short revolver but I know that the 4 inch Model 19 that I shot that introduced me to the magical world of revolvers was something truly....er.... magical. It made me a believer in wheelguns and I subsequently amassed a collection of Smith and Wesson works. But having had access to that same 4 inch model to compare to my 5 inch Model 28 and my 6 inch Model 19 I can safely say that the 4 inch version has a purely wonderful balance that is missing by >< that much for the longer 6 inch 19 version. The 5 inch Model 28 feels just fine thanks to the heavier frame. In fact it achieves the same subtlety of balance that the 4 inch 19 managed but is just heavier overall due to the N vs K frame weight.


Oh, and if they ever did drop the 12.6 classification I'd be first in line for a Walther PPK. I've got a BB version and it fits the hands SOOOOOOO nicely that it's almost criminal.... :D
 
If we are talking about chopping a barrel from 6" to 4", then yes there will be a measurable drop in velocity, but it does not follow that a 4" revolver will always shoot a given load slower than a gun with a 6" barrel. Barrel length is but a single element that effects velocity in a revolver. A revolver with an excessive cylinder gap will produce less velocity than a revolver with a tight cylinder gap. Bores can be tight or loose as can chamber throats, and if a good seal isn't made between the base of the bullet and the barrel wall, efficiency to say nothing of accuracy is lost.

With respect to accuracy, there is no reason a short barreled revolver can't be accurate, it is just more difficult to shoot accurately.
 
enefgee said:
Short barrelled revolvers can be amazingly accurate, as most people have mentioned, they are as accurate as you make them. Watch a PPC Snubby match sometime, it's almost scary the accuracy they get.
Click to expand...

There are verified stories of Elmer Keith shooting jumping fish off the coast of San Diego at over 150 yards with his 4" Model 29 and shooting coyote's 300-400 yards with the same gun.

My 629 4" can ring the 6" gong at 100 meters offhand 6 for 6 shots if I do my part of course. Just because it has a short barrel doesn't mean it is inaccurate.

That website ballistics by the inch was interesting for the velocity side of things.

I remember years ago one of the gun rags did the same thing only they did accuracy as well for a couple of different caliber rifles/pistols.

Basically for a rifle or pistol they came to the conclusion that at the 13" mark was all a barrel length needed to be for accuracy. So another wards if you have a 13 or a 30 inch barrel the accuracy will be the same. For us non machine rest humans the length of the barrel helps us with a better sight picture.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUT SAME CATEGORY.

I remember sitting in our monthly CHAS gun club meeting in the early 90s in Edmonton and every month we would hear from the President of the National Firearms Association the late Dave Tomlinson. I remember about April or May of 92 he got up and said that he had heard rumors of the impending 12(6) coming down the line and that we needed to buy a cheap .25 or .32 pistol or revolver with a 4 inch or smaller barrel. Trail Firearms (now gone) brought in a whole truck load of surplus .32 CZ pistols from the East German Police and sold them for 75.00 each. The owner made about 10 bucks on each pistol for his paperwork headaches, they worked together to make sure that most of the members had one just encase the government was going to move ahead with the ban. About a year later the ban came into effect and we all have the 12(6) on our licenses. Man I miss Dave's update each month at our meetings. RIP buddy.
 
Thanks guys! That ballistics by the inch link was really informative. The shorter barrels aren't nearly the trade off I thought they'd be.
 
I agree with gunzik, 2" revolvers can be quite acurate out to 10m. They just seem to point naturally. I'd only add, weight makes a difference. My alloy frame Colt Cobra can't hold a candle to my 2" model 10. The model 10 is a very sturdy unit, and really tames recoil. The Cobra is down right nasty to shoot.

I've never noticed better accuracy with a 5" auto, over a 4".
 
kodiakjack said:
Thanks guys! That ballistics by the inch link was really informative. The shorter barrels aren't nearly the trade off I thought they'd be.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you really get a sense of what chamberings can be improved with a longer barrel and what makes little or no difference.

You often hear guys wanting a 10" barrel on a 9mm subgun etc, figuring that they will get a lot of extra punch. But it looks like on most loads there's not much difference between a 9mm out of an Mp5 or a 9mm out of a Glock 19.
 
gunzik said:
Unscientific anecdotal information:

It seems to me that the quality of that short barrel, and the shooter dynamics, make a lot of difference in shot placement. Forget how many foot pounds you have for a moment, I rather enjoy actually hitting the target. Some of my restricted guns aren't accurate, while some of my 2" snubbies are amazing at 10 meters. Caliber also seems to lend itself to greater accuracy. .32 is more accurate, maybe because I'm not flinching and anticipating pain, while I somehow can't shoot nearly as well with a .40. There are of course lots of opinions about the potential accuracy of various cartridges.

And each gun is different, with variations in manufacture. My super-accurate 2" can be buried with me, it's on the "never ever sell" list.

Seecamp accuracy is quite acceptable, for point shooting without sights, at 5 meters. Big card table. At least mine will make 6" groups, neatly centered, from rapid offhand less-than-excellent shooting. And the little Colt Junior (2"), Beretta 950, Walther model 9, Baby Brownings etc. all (so far) make very acceptable little groups at 5 meters, much tighter than my restricted 9mm. Of course at 20 meters the 9mm is still on the paper ...

Here's the press-release version:

Shooting with a short barrel amplifies shooter error. A short barrel dramatically points out any flaws in shooting style and mechanics. Prohibited length handguns are critical to better sporting and competitive shooting. Canadians are being severely handicapped in the development of world-class marksmen by the absence of this vital tool, the short barrel, due to the ineffective and poorly thought out "prohibited" class.
Click to expand...

Amen, brother...Amen. :)
 
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