Going to be shopping for a used sxs soon at gunshows. Hopefully British if I can swing it financially. I've read thet there are a lot of short chambered guns out there(2in.,2.5in. and 2 9/16). Are these guns generally marked as such and if so where? On the barrel flats along with the proofs? A reputable dealer will tell you but some aren't and a few don't know.
Short chamber shotguns
- Thread starter Mike Webb
- Start date
There probably is a way to identify the chambering through markings and whatnot - but I'd be inclined to bring a spent 3.5" shell with me with some graduations scribed on the side and half of the rim filed away.
On the flats with the proofs.
Earlier guns will be marked in inches, with a dram load of powder charge, later guns will be marked with a length in Millimeters. This shows the barrel lump markings of a 1920's vintage 2 1/2 inch chambered, nitro proofed gun.
Educate yourself and tread carefully!
Take a look at the Doubleguns Journal site and forum, among other online resources.
There is some good info on doubleguns, relating to use of low(er) pressure loads of 2 3/4 shells in 2 1/2 inch chambers, that is worth tracking down. Fella with time and money both, went to the trouble of testing with an instrumented chamber, so his info is based on facts, not conjecture.
Good hunting!
Cheers
Trev
It doesn't matter what the proof marks say. With an older English gun that is being sold in Canada the only things I"ll trust are a chamber length gauge and the opinion of a qualified gunsmith. Even at reputable gun dealers, I've seen too many with lengthened chambers and barrels honed beyond safety minimums.
In the UK have they have very specific requirements that guns must be sold in proof. Here's a link to an article from the Birmingham proof house on buying a second hand shotgun. While it might not be feasible or affordable for us to ship a gun to them for proof testing, a gunsmith experienced with double guns can determine if the gun should be used with modern loads.
http://www.gunproof.com/Notice_Board/notice_board.html
In the UK have they have very specific requirements that guns must be sold in proof. Here's a link to an article from the Birmingham proof house on buying a second hand shotgun. While it might not be feasible or affordable for us to ship a gun to them for proof testing, a gunsmith experienced with double guns can determine if the gun should be used with modern loads.
http://www.gunproof.com/Notice_Board/notice_board.html
The British guns have the shotshell dimensions but quite a lot of others don't.
I have many Husvarna and other European shotguns (even modern ones) not showing the shot size neither on the water table nor under the barrel.
I also have some 16 Ga, 2 1/2" not even showing the gauge.
So, for because of this, I am with Claybuster on that.
Here's an example, a rare Husqvarna model 50 in 12 Ga, 2 1/2";
I have many Husvarna and other European shotguns (even modern ones) not showing the shot size neither on the water table nor under the barrel.
I also have some 16 Ga, 2 1/2" not even showing the gauge.
So, for because of this, I am with Claybuster on that.
Here's an example, a rare Husqvarna model 50 in 12 Ga, 2 1/2";
Current production Euro guns will have the chamber length on the barrels in millimeters. 65 for a 2-1/2 or 70 for a 2-3/4.
All of the 12 ga underlever type Husqvarna SxS guns on the Tradeex website are shorter than 2.75" (70mm). Mine is not marked with chamber lengnth. Measurements indicate it has 2-9/16" chamber (67mm?) so i have loaded 2.5" 1 oz shells for it.
There is (or was) 2-1/2" commercial shells available in Canada at one time - I remember a post from Baribal with that info - i think the maker was Kent but i don't remember who the dealer was. Maybe Baribal can post that info again if he reads this.
There is (or was) 2-1/2" commercial shells available in Canada at one time - I remember a post from Baribal with that info - i think the maker was Kent but i don't remember who the dealer was. Maybe Baribal can post that info again if he reads this.
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Yes, Jethunter,
There's Kent/Gamebore, there is also some Fiocchi/Mike floating around (I have some in 16 Ga 2 1/2") and Sellier & Bellot also make 67mm shotshells.
Under CIP there is 12/50mm SAPL (12/2.00" SAPL), 12/60mm (12/2 3/8"), 12/65mm (12/2 1/2"), 12/67mm (12/2 5/8"), 12/70mm (12/2 3/4"), 12/73mm 12/2 7/8"), 12/76mm (12/3") and 12/89mm (12/3 1/2"). Not counting all the other possible gauges, 4, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32 and 410, wich are all standardized under CIP.
Nominal CIP chamber lenghts (not counting the cones, only the cylinder part) for each are;
12/50mm = 50.10mm +2.00mm
12/60mm = 60.10mm +2.00mm
12/65mm = 65.10mm +2.00mm
12/67mm = 67.60mm +2.00mm
12/70mm = 69.90mm +2.00mm
12/73mm = 73.00mm +2.00mm
12/76mm = 76.20mm +2.00mm
12/89mm = 88.90mm +2.00mm
Lots of fun there.
Sweden did not enter CIP yet.
The lenght marking is not mandatory for non CIP / SAAMI manufacturers; hence this un-marked 1953 Husqvarna model 350, considered as a modern gun (it's a 12ga, 2 3/4").
There's Kent/Gamebore, there is also some Fiocchi/Mike floating around (I have some in 16 Ga 2 1/2") and Sellier & Bellot also make 67mm shotshells.
Under CIP there is 12/50mm SAPL (12/2.00" SAPL), 12/60mm (12/2 3/8"), 12/65mm (12/2 1/2"), 12/67mm (12/2 5/8"), 12/70mm (12/2 3/4"), 12/73mm 12/2 7/8"), 12/76mm (12/3") and 12/89mm (12/3 1/2"). Not counting all the other possible gauges, 4, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32 and 410, wich are all standardized under CIP.
Nominal CIP chamber lenghts (not counting the cones, only the cylinder part) for each are;
12/50mm = 50.10mm +2.00mm
12/60mm = 60.10mm +2.00mm
12/65mm = 65.10mm +2.00mm
12/67mm = 67.60mm +2.00mm
12/70mm = 69.90mm +2.00mm
12/73mm = 73.00mm +2.00mm
12/76mm = 76.20mm +2.00mm
12/89mm = 88.90mm +2.00mm
Lots of fun there.
Sweden did not enter CIP yet.
The lenght marking is not mandatory for non CIP / SAAMI manufacturers; hence this un-marked 1953 Husqvarna model 350, considered as a modern gun (it's a 12ga, 2 3/4").
It's definitely confusiing and when you add gunsmiths with chamber reamers to the mix there's no such thing as a sure thing. There is a 16 gauge on the EE right now that is marked 65mm and the seller acknowledges the chambers were lengthened by an "authorised" gunsmith. Were I interested in the gun I'd be asking a lot more questions about the gunsmith, where and when it was modified and whether the gun was resubmitted for proof testing with the new chambers.
A few years ago a friend of mine fell in love with a beautiful sxs being sold through a "reputable" dealer. Fortunately he took the gun to a gunsmith experienced with doubles before buying it. The gun was proofed for 2-1/2 but Bubba had gotten to it at some point and the chambers measured 3" in the right and 3-1/2" in the left. Wall thicknesses were well below acceptable limits. The gunsmith said the only thing to do with it was to sleeve the barrels.
The gun was taken back to the dealer who claimed no knowledge of the alterations. I have no idea what happened to the gun after that or if the dealer sold it to a less cautious customer but the next time I was in the shop the gun was nowhere to be seen.
A few years ago a friend of mine fell in love with a beautiful sxs being sold through a "reputable" dealer. Fortunately he took the gun to a gunsmith experienced with doubles before buying it. The gun was proofed for 2-1/2 but Bubba had gotten to it at some point and the chambers measured 3" in the right and 3-1/2" in the left. Wall thicknesses were well below acceptable limits. The gunsmith said the only thing to do with it was to sleeve the barrels.
The gun was taken back to the dealer who claimed no knowledge of the alterations. I have no idea what happened to the gun after that or if the dealer sold it to a less cautious customer but the next time I was in the shop the gun was nowhere to be seen.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Years ago when I had first moved to Vancouver Island and was starting into upland bird hunting, I purchased my first shotgun from Ernie Johnsons Hardware in Naniamo. The old but well known store had a room upstairs that held mainly used firearms and while my wife was doing the weelky grocery shopping, I was shopping at Ernies. Knowing very little about shotguns, I went through the 12ga guns and chose the one that 'felt' the best.
As I later found out, it had short chambers but George King, an English gunsmith of note in the area informed me it would handle trap loads just fine. The trap loads I found to be more than adequate for local grouse and also worked well on Pheasants in AB.
At a few gunshows on the Island I was fortunate enough to acquire a couple of cases of Eley Grand Prix shells so I should be fine now
.
As I later found out, it had short chambers but George King, an English gunsmith of note in the area informed me it would handle trap loads just fine. The trap loads I found to be more than adequate for local grouse and also worked well on Pheasants in AB.
At a few gunshows on the Island I was fortunate enough to acquire a couple of cases of Eley Grand Prix shells so I should be fine now
.
