Short Magnums. What are they bringing to the field?

Well, we're talking about the justification of the WSM's over already existing cartridges, no?

So, no, you didn't mention the .280, but it does exist.

And when talking about .270win vs .270WSM, it makes logical sense to me to make a perfectly analagous comparison... like the .280 vs the 7WSM.

And yes, I can be slow sometimes :).

RememberTheSomme said:
The 7mmWSM has small ballistic advantage over the 7mmRem Mag(not the 7mmExpress) and that in a short case, The 270WSM offers nothing over the .270 Standard Caliber ,except short action.
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I think a lot of people would argue that the .270WSM offers more of a ballistic advantage over the .270win than the 7WSM does over the 7RemMag.

I like the 7Rem mag, but bought a 7WSM just to be different. I could have bought a .270WSM and used it for the exact same applications. It's only .007" different after all. To me, all 3 they're pretty much the same thing ballistically [7rem mag, 7wsm, and .270wsm], just like the .270 and the .280 are pretty much the same thing.

So, why do the WSM's exist? Maybe just to give us something to talk about on CGN!

But, like you said, maybe I'm missing the point.
I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll see it better tomorrow.

Cheers.
 
Eagleye said:
The 7mm WSM offers a slight ballistic advantage over the 7mm Rem Mag in FACTORY offerings only.
The 7mm Rem Mag case has more capacity, therefore will drive equal weight bullets faster, all other factors being equal.
The factory offerings in the WSM series are full pressure offerings, whereas some of the others have been watered down over the years.
Regards, Eagleye.
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My feelings exactly Eagle.You are correct;)


My comparison on the 7mmWSM in my discussion with Huntin' Gun, was merely to concede the fact in avaliable factory ammo and the short action, knowing full well the potential of the Big 7 on the handloaders bench against the shortie. :cheers:
 
With a 130gr bullet, the 270WSM offers about 200fps and the 270 Weatherby offers about 225-250fps more than the 270 Winchester.

With a 180gr bullet the 300WSM and 300WM offer about 200-250fps over the 30-06

With a 140gr bullet the 7WSM and 7RM offer about 200-250fps over the .280

The Long Magnums and the Standard cartridges use long actions and the WSM's use short actions.

These differences may be important to you or they may not be important to you....And you may not even care, you just pick the cartridge that appeals to you the best because it interests you. That's probably the best way to determine what to buy, anyway.
 
I've looked at the .270WSM. It provides 200 fps more in most bullet weights and the marginal benefits of a shorter action in exchange for one less round in the rifle and ammo that is harder to find. The benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks enough for me to give up my .270 Winchester. YMMV.
 
I don't have any of the WSM's. At this point, I am not in the market for another hunting rifle, so I don't have an interest in them. I'm perfectly happy with my 300 WM, my 308 and my 6.5 X 55. I am looking for a big lead chunk tosser - 45-70, maybe 45 LC or so. But if I were in the market for a smaller-calibre hunting rifle, I'd definitely give the WSM's a look. In my opinion, nice calibers as a new toy, but nothing worth trading for.
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
Some are starting to use WSM's for F-Class competition, the 7mm I believe, that is bringing something to the field.

They aren't going anywhere.
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Your correct, 7mm wsm and 180gr bergers at 3000 fps, to = the bc in a 300, you would have to load a 210 gr bullet at the same 3000 fps and that brings another factor into play, "recoil". Allso, the high bc bullets in 7mm will stay inside off the 308 or 6.5 bullets when the wind blows. The British record 1000yd match was broken using a 300wsm necked down to 7mm. The standard 7mm version has slightly more case capacity than a 300 or 270 wsm.
 
Ballistically speaking I see no advantage whatsoever in the WSM's over the regular magnums. In terms of sheer speed the regular magnums always seem to have a slight edge. The ones I've used were no more (or less) accurate on average then their longer brethren, but in terms of efficiency the WSM/SAUM cartridges get the nod. I would certainly buy one just for something different, and do it knowing that they are good, capable cartridges, field equal to their predecessors in all ways that count. FWIW - dan
 
You guys ask yourself that question and you will have your answer... Would i let go my 270, 300 mag, 223, 243, 7mm, forever and take a WSM 270, 300 WSM, 223 WSSM, 243 WSSM, 7mm WSM, my answer is no... JP.
 
AlexF said:
Very good question! Short and fat cartridges:
  1. burn powder more efficiently,
  2. have smaller case capacities which does not needed to be filled by expanding gas,
  3. and are loaded to almost 100% capacity

This means that a 300 WSM might required 70gr of powder to drive a 180gr bullet at 2900fps while a 300 Win Mag might required 80gr of powder to do the same.

Free recoil energy = (bullet weight * muzzle velocity + powder weight * 3700) ^ 2 / (2 * rifle weight)

The reduced recoil comes from the fact that 10gr less of powder is burned to get the same muzzle velocity. It's only a 4% difference but since it's squared, you end up with 8%-9% less recoil energy.

The is even more evident when comparing the recoil of 6mm BR and 243 Win.
They basically do the same job but 6mm BR used 30gr of powder while 243 Win needs 40gr of powder.

Alex
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No matter what the powder weight, efficiency etc, etc., if the amount of energy going forward at the muzzle is equal, as claimed with the WSM and WM, then the amount of energy going the opposite direction to the shooter is also equal. That is one of the most basic laws of physics. Add that the short action is a little lighter, this should make felt recoil slightly more with the WSM.
 
I think what is being said is that you can use less powder to achieve similar results.

Here is an example:

I can get approx 2900 ft/sec with 140's and some 150 grain bullets inmy 7mm-08 with 42-44 grains of whatever powder I am using.

Now, a 7mm Remington Magnum, which can spit them out faster , or loaded for the same velocity will need over 60 grains of your chosen powder.

So I wonder why the larger cased rifle has more recoil achieving similar velocities, resulting in the same energy?I don't know the answer to that.

I do think effiency has something to do with that.

If you get better combustion and powder burning it can't not help.

My 7WSM , will bruise you within 3 or 4 shots!!


bisonhd said:
No matter what the powder weight, efficiency etc, etc., if the amount of energy going forward at the muzzle is equal, as claimed with the WSM and WM, then the amount of energy going the opposite direction to the shooter is also equal. That is one of the most basic laws of physics. Add that the short action is a little lighter, this should make felt recoil slightly more with the WSM.
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If the rifle suits your wants and needs, it shoots accurately, and the bullets hit with enough velocity to expand properly, what difference does the cartridge make? I would gladly let a 7RM go for a 7WSM if it accomplished the same darn thing. I would also let a 7WSM go if a 7RM would get the job done just as well. There really are no bad options, here.
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
I think what is being said is that you can use less powder to achieve similar results.

Here is an example:

I can get approx 2900 ft/sec with 140's and some 150 grain bullets inmy 7mm-08 with 42-44 grains of whatever powder I am using.

Now, a 7mm Remington Magnum, which can spit them out faster , or loaded for the same velocity will need over 60 grains of your chosen powder.

So I wonder why the larger cased rifle has more recoil achieving similar velocities, resulting in the same energy?I don't know the answer to that.

I do think effiency has something to do with that.

If you get better combustion and powder burning it can't not help.

My 7WSM , will bruise you within 3 or 4 shots!!
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Because recoil isn't solely determined by bullet energy, but also by the energy and velocity of the gases exiting the muzzle (the muzzle blast). The more powder you're burning, the more blast you'll get (also higher quantity and velocity of gas), which contributes significantly to recoil. We are also neglecting to take into account the rate at which the energy is released from the rifle system, which will affect the time frame in which the energy is delivered to our shoulder, and how "quick and sharp" the recoil feels.
 
I have the 270 and 300 WSM in a Kimber Montana and Sako 85 Bavarian and have found them to perform less than the 270 and 300 Weatherby cartridges.
There is no advantage to having a shorter action, light magnum rifle. Lets cut the crap for this reason because I have been cradling a rifle in my arms for exactly "38" years and the short magnum cartridges/rifles has not transformed me what so ever as a better hunter or shooter.

I carry heavy long action Weatherby and Sako's for years and didn't need that short little action to quickly recycle a second round or to walk further distances. I know many sheep hunters who carried heavy long action rifles up mountains without one complaint. I'm batting .995 on first shot kills with over 100 big game animals. A single shot rifle would of would of been suffice, however the single shot rifles (Merkel/Blaser)that I perfer are to light, and all other single shots (T/C, Rossi, H&R, Ruger ) are utilitarian.

Lets not forget that the WSM's were conceived to stimulate the rifle marked. Sales were at an all-time low with the same old 270 win., 30-06 Springfield, 300 win. mag., 7mm Rem. Mag.
The WSM's are not a wiz bang cartridge by any means. For wiz bang go to Lazzeroni rifle selection for they have the fastest hunting cartridges in the world. I know they are beyond the price reach of most hunters, plus they won't transform us into better hunters either.

For all the short magnums I give them 1 out of 5 stars. Even 1 is being generous.
 
caramel said:
You guys ask yourself that question and you will have your answer... Would i let go my 270, 300 mag, 223, 243, 7mm, forever and take a WSM 270, 300 WSM, 223 WSSM, 243 WSSM, 7mm WSM, my answer is no... JP.
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My answer is "no" as well.
 
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AlexF said:
The numbers are in and:

270 WSM sells extremely well,
300 WSM sells well,
323 WSM is great but sells really slowly,
7 WSM is dead but is also a better cartridge than 270 WSM.

There are lots of reasons for this but basically
  • 270 WSM - North American prefer to punch .277" entry holes rather than .284" entry holes in game,
  • 300 WSM - 30 Calibers are great for large game,
  • 323 WSM - everyone want a short action 338 Win Mag so this will have to do for now but it's not a .338
  • 7 WSM - Was made redundant but 270 WSM which makes Magic 27 caliber entry holes in game (You can't beat Magic...)

    Keep on talking, but you won't fool an old veteran like me.
    Quote* This year the 30-06 will kill more big game animals than all of the WSM cartridges combined. "That should" kill your noted above theory on WSM performances. Winchester has only re-invented the wheel to stimulate the economy. Todays North Americans (mostly Americans) are overly trendy and will purchase any latest gadget. There are minimal differences between the WSM and the conventional magnums, minimal.

    /QUOTE]
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