Short model Brown Bess reproduction.

sean69

sean69

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Just got a short model Brown Bess reproduction from Military Heritage as a gift. http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket7.htm and had a few questions about shooting it ~ mostly safety related.

I understand that the flash hole needs to be drilled [1/16-3/32] and roughly where it should go, but exactly where? Can I be out by a little bit or is position really important?

Are these guns actually safe to shoot, I had the action [?] apart to fix a problem with the trigger & can't say I'm completely impressed with the quality of parts or workmanship [though that's not really a complaint - it is what it is...] All the pins in it are nails with the heads cut off rather than actual steel pins, even the pin holding the trigger in is a trimmed nail [which is actually already bent & needs replacing!]
So - that makes me start to wonder about the quality of the barrel. These are obviously not meant for heavy daily use, but what are my chances of coming out of this with all my fingers and eyes if I try to shoot this thing?

Any and all advice/comments are welcome!

- oh yes, and also, where in Canada can I get things like flints, worms[?] etc. basically the extra accouterments?
 
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If there isn't a flash hole, was the gun really intended to be fired? What does the vendor recommend - I could not open the link you provided.
Hill Top Musket Supply in Sask should be able to set you up with accessories.
Normal procedure with any new M/L gun is to fire a proof load or two to test it's integrity. If it lets go then at least you won't lose a hand or your head.
 
Ol' Flinter said:
If there isn't a flash hole, was the gun really intended to be fired? What does the vendor recommend - I could not open the link you provided.
Hill Top Musket Supply in Sask should be able to set you up with accessories.
Normal procedure with any new M/L gun is to fire a proof load or two to test it's integrity. If it lets go then at least you won't lose a hand or your head.
Click to expand...

I fixed the link, it seemed to catch the last ] ....

I don't know who the manufacturer is, it says "Tower" on the action, and I've seen these on other sites. [so I'm having trouble tracking down what/if the pressure rating on the barrel is]

The note on the website about the absence of the flash hole is 'so they can ship it'

Of course it also relieves them of any sort of liability as well - which is why I am trying to find out if it is safe.
 
There are many discussions of these Made in India reproductions.
Go to www.muzzleloading forums.com, and search.
There are very mixed opinions about the quality of these guns, ranging from junk, to adequate for the purpose, to OK.
If you choose to vent the barrel and shoot the gun, it is obvious that you are assuming all responsibilty for shooting safety. The claim that selling the guns unvented eases legal issues is true enough, but note the absence of recomendations about shooting.
I would suggest pulling the breechplug and inspecting the breeching.
The vent should be drilled centered on the pan, fore and aft, and just below the bottom of the frizzen, vertically. Toward the top of the pan, rather than the bottom.
Once you've drilled it, I would testfire the barrel, out of the gun. Rough together a wooden cradle to support the barrel, fire it with a fuse.
 
After looking at the specifications on this rifle which states that it has a tempered high carbon seamless steel barrel it is clear that it is meant't to be shot.
I don't know how hard the steel is but don't snap the drill bit off in a half drilled hole.:eek:
 
I don't know what tempered high carbon seamless means exactly. High carbon suggests something greater than half a point of carbon. CrMo aircraft tubing is 4130 - hardly high carbon. You don't want a barrel to be hard. The steel number isn't North American standard. It would be worth asking the company.
It is my understanding that the barrels in these muskets are made from drawn seamless tubing.
Seamless DOM tubing is satisfactory for smoothbore ml barrels, as long as there are no flaws or inclusions. That is why careful inspection and testing are important.
 
hmmmm... lots of good info here so far. But I do have permission from my club to remote/test fire it on a slow day. [I can do this safely on the trap range ~ which is technically closed, so no one else will be near by.]

Any recommendations for testing? besides the obvious target loads, full loads, what should I test up to 130%? 140%?

As for inspecting, anything to look for besides cracking, bulging etc.?
 
Look for powder fouling leaking back around the breechplug threads.
I testfire smoothbores with shot, rather than ball.
I am inclined to test twice, once with a double charge of powder, and a single load of shot. The second with a single charge of powder, double shot. These duplicate possible loading errors.
I do not test the barrel in the stock. I fasten a block of wood to a plank, butt the breech up against it, tie the barrel down to the plank. Sandbag the thing in place. Fire with fuse or electrically. I want to avoid stock damage from severe recoil, that is why I fasten the barrel to a plank.
You can easily do a search and find the Birmingham Proof House standards for a smoothbore 11ga. gun.
 
tiriaq said:
You can easily do a search and find the Birmingham Proof House standards for a smoothbore 11ga. gun.
Click to expand...

the definitive proof for a barrel that has not been previously tested, is 4 x powder and single charge of shot. If the barrel has been previously tested to the 4x while still only rough finished then the proof charge is only double. Having said that, I personally would not exceed a double charge of powder and single charge of shot

when I have test fired guns, I have tied them to a tire and pulled the trigger with a 20 foot string although keep in mind that fragments could fly quite a bit farther than that. The risk also is that in the unlikely case that the barrel did burst, it would damage the stock

cheers mooncoon
 
Every Indian musket "Ive seen plenty and owned one or 2" were perfectly safe to fire.

Touch hole should be centered on the pan right at level with the lip.


Proof her with a double load and a ball.


If your interested in history and reenacting I would recommend joining a group as there are many of them In Ontario.

Belonging to a good reenactment group will teach you all you need to know about your bess, her operation and firing.

A added bonus is you get to dispel all the scary fear mongering with regards to shooting sports in our great land when you demonstrate to the public show them your arm etc.

If your interested in reenacting I can set you up and get you information if you like.

You already have the most expensive part ...Now a tunic, some gators and britches well have you soldering smartly in NO time at all:p


Also If you go to the muzzleloadingforum you will have your musket heavily slandered by folks that seem to think a musket needs to be 3000$ and hand made by mike brooks to be worth firing.

The indian muskets are great to start with, just maintain it and keep it clean, worse part on them are the frizzens usually need to be rehardened.....As yours is a 2nd pattern maybe a new pedersoli frizzen can be made to fit??? they are cheap and widely available.
 
Follow tiriaq/mooncoon's proofing advice.
Once your musket passes the ultimate test it's game on.
This is my Indian reproduction 10 bore, brass barrelled blunderbuss.
March-hare002.jpg


^The shot load at roughly ten yards cut quite a path through the dense bush and took this very unlucky hare.
Musketfire is 110% correct. You can lay out considerably less cash and still enjoy BP muzzleloaders safely.
Take the difference in price compared to more expensive firearms and stock up on more powder & shot/shot molds IMO.

Cheers!
 
EDIT:

Just did a bit more research on the material used in thier muskets. I Can't read french too good and all the bilingual folks in the house are in bed but it seems that someone in France is concerned with the use of type:BS970 no.080M40 in muskets. Like I say I can't read the francais too well so maybe I got it wrong LOL.

Danger : tir avec une réplique d’arme ancienne

mercredi 28 avril 2010

Il vient d’y avoir à Cambrais un accident ou une réplique de fusil mle 1777 a explosé lors d’une reconstitution. Gros drame, le procureur de la république saisie les armes, les journalises écrivent d’énormes bêtises [1] en affirmant que ces armes n’avaient pas été déclarées. Bref une tempête dans un verre d’eau que, peut être nous aurions pu éviter.

Il semble que les fusils soient des reproductions vendues par une société "Armaé" qui commercialise des répliques pour la décoration ou les reconstitutions mais en aucun cas des armes pour le tir. On peut lire au bas de leur catalogue l’information suivante :
Nos reproductions d’armes à feu sont conformes aux modèles originaux, tant en taille qu’en poids, et les mécanismes sont en parfait état de marche (fermeture du bassinet, batterie trempée et durcie de manière à permettre au silex de produire ses étincelles, armement du chien en deux étapes, déclenchement, queue de culasse vissée à chaud). Le canon est réalisé en acier au carbone [2]. Nous ne sommes cependant pas armuriers, et à ce titre ne sommes pas habilité à vendre des armes à feu fonctionnelles. La lumière de la chambre n’est donc pas percée sur nos reproductions, et il est de ce fait impossible d’enflammer la poudre de la chambre, ni de tirer.

Gardez-vous de tirer avec n’importe quoi qui ressemble à une arme. Une arme ancienne ou une réplique est un objet qui, dans certains cas peut s’avérer dangereux. Son approche doit être abordée avec beaucoup de sérieux. Comme le Canada dry, ce n’est pas parce qu’il y a un canon, une crosse et une platine que c’est véritablement une arme.
Notes

[1] de cambrais

[2] type:BS970 no.080M40
Click to expand...


from:

http://w ww.armes-ufa.com/spip.php?breve141
 
Is the link you provided the place you bought from? If so, sounds like it's good to shoot, as people have commented in the feedback section saying they group well.
As for additional supplies, as mentioned earlier, re-enactments are the place to go for that stuff. I do 1812, and with the 200th anniversary there's events all over the place, though you just missed out on Queenston Heights.
Closest big event to you is Stoney Creek I believe, but that's not until June.
 
Alex_Zues said:
Is the link you provided the place you bought from? If so, sounds like it's good to shoot, as people have commented in the feedback section saying they group well.
As for additional supplies, as mentioned earlier, re-enactments are the place to go for that stuff. I do 1812, and with the 200th anniversary there's events all over the place, though you just missed out on Queenston Heights.
Closest big event to you is Stoney Creek I believe, but that's not until June.
Click to expand...

As anybody here who speaks French can also tell you - THIS - 'Il semble que les fusils soient des reproductions vendues par une société "Armaé" qui commercialise des répliques pour la décoration ou les reconstitutions mais en aucun cas des armes pour le tir. On peut lire au bas de leur catalogue l’information suivante'

'It seems that these rifles [sic] are reproductions sold by the 'Armaé' company who have commercialised replicas for decoration or re-enactment, but not firearms for actual shooting. You can read the following information from their catalogue below'... - Also - 'Nous ne sommes cependant pas armuriers, et à ce titre ne sommes pas habilité à vendre des armes à feu fonctionnelles. La lumière de la chambre n’est donc pas percée sur nos reproductions, et il est de ce fait impossible d’enflammer la poudre de la chambre, ni de tirer.'

Hmmm. I read - the manufacturer is stating 'we are not 'armouriers' - makers of guns - we are NOT in the business of selling functional firearms', and furthermore, that although our our reproductions conform in all external details to the real thing, including the lockwork et al, the barrel is made of carbon steel and the touch-hole is NOT drilled through into the chamber, making ignition impossible, as well as shooting.

France is a member of the CIP, and ALL its REAL firearms are individually proofed, as they are by any firearms manufacturer signed up to this international standard of gun proofing. These reproductions are NOT proofed in accordance with the international agreement, which is also part of the law in those nations signatory.

So, you shoot this decorative replica at your own risk.

My grandmother was half-French...I am the only French-speaker in my pretty large family in SE Ontario, and I live mostly in the UK.

My apologies to any REAL Francophones for any mistooks I may have made in translatement.

tac
 
Ah, Je ne Francais parle. Said that once and someone tried to correct me, then part way through realized what I had tried to say and got the joke.
As for if it's fireable, I'm no gunsmith, but if you type in BS970 no. 080M40, there's a whole discussion online for if it's shootability. Some talk of shooting them and haven't mentioned any issues. Is a couple of guys on the internet proof 100% of safety? No. I suppose that's why the DS site itself suggests having a gunsmith check it out.
I'm actually surpirsed there isn't a distinct Yay or Nay on the subject.
Is this musket they sell actually from the above French supplier?
 
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