Shortening a barrel due to US Export ban on anything over 16in.

heroofmyownlife said:
Koldt, I went to the trouble of quoting the relevant part of the criminal code to support my arguments. The Criminal Code is very clear: ANY rifle or shotgun that is adapted to have a barrel/overall length of less that x/y is prohib. It makes no distinction between restricted/non restricted or barrels that are longer/shorter than the definition already.

If there are other definitions, laws, or regulations I missed that allow restricted firearms with short barrels to be changed, please quote them or provide a link.
Click to expand...

I can't quote or provide a link to "regulations" but I can tell you that CFC and specifically the Registrations section in Ottawa have on many occassions accepted our request to change the registered description of AR's (rifles) to barrel lengths under 457mm. Changing the "upper" on an AR does not seem to be considered "sawing, cutting or any other alteration". They have consistantly re-classified the firearm with the new (short) barrel length and issued a new registration certificate showing the gun as "Restricted" not as "Prohibited".

We went through the same issues with CFC and the Firearms Reference Branch when we initially imported the Krinker Plinker kits. The issue in question was, can we change the barrel on the gun (to a 16" or an 8") without this being considered a "sawing, cutting or any other alteration" that would reclassify the gun to "Prohibited Status". Keeping in mind that the barrels we were using were NOT made by RUGER and the end result (an 8" barreled 10/22 was not a commercially available offering from Ruger).

We received confirmation from both the FRT section and from the RCMP that changing the barrel did not make the gun "Prohibited". Subsequently CFC and the RCMP re-registered many of these Ruger 10/22 rifles from 18" + non restricted firearms to short barrel "Restricted" firearms. All perfectly legal.

There are legal grounds to show you can change the barrel of the firearm to under 457mm without triggering a "Prohibited" classification.

Mark
 
Questar said:
I can't quote or provide a link to "regulations" but I can tell you that CFC and specifically the Registrations section in Ottawa have on many occassions accepted our request to change the registered description of AR's (rifles) to barrel lengths under 457mm. Changing the "upper" on an AR does not seem to be considered "sawing, cutting or any other alteration". They have consistantly re-classified the firearm with the new (short) barrel length and issued a new registration certificate showing the gun as "Restricted" not as "Prohibited".

We went through the same issues with CFC and the Firearms Reference Branch when we initially imported the Krinker Plinker kits. The issue in question was, can we change the barrel on the gun (to a 16" or an 8") without this being considered a "sawing, cutting or any other alteration" that would reclassify the gun to "Prohibited Status". Keeping in mind that the barrels we were using were NOT made by RUGER and the end result (an 8" barreled 10/22 was not a commercially available offering from Ruger).

We received confirmation from both the FRT section and from the RCMP that changing the barrel did not make the gun "Prohibited". Subsequently CFC and the RCMP re-registered many of these Ruger 10/22 rifles from 18" + non restricted firearms to short barrel "Restricted" firearms. All perfectly legal.

There are legal grounds to show you can change the barrel of the firearm to under 457mm without triggering a "Prohibited" classification.
Mark
Click to expand...

Nicely put.

To summarize:
It is reducing the barrel length to less than 457mm by cutting, sawing (or similar) means that makes the firearm prohibitted.
 
Deckard said:
Or, cut a 16 inch AR barrel, not a 20?
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Actually... read the legislation again... carefully...

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,

(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or

(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,​

It doesn't say anything about what length the barrel started at... we just like to assume that's what they meant but what they said was if you take a rifle or shotgun (any barrel length) and if you "saw, cut or alter" that rifle or shotgn and if, as a result of those alterations, the overall length becomes less than 660mm or the overall length is 660mm or greater but the barrel is less than 457mm long then you've created a "Prohibited" firearm.

Technically speaking if the rifle started out as a 16" barrel (or whatever length) with overall rifle length of 661mm and you cut the stock off so that overall length is now 659mm you've created a "Prohibited" firearm. (This was really what they were trying to stop... the old "sawed off shotgun"... but they worded the legislation poorly, as they so often do).

If you start with a rifle that has a 16" barrel and overall length of 661mm and you remove the stock and replace it with a factory folding stock you have NOT created a "prohibited" firearm but you may have created a "Restricted" firearm depending on overall length.

If you start with a rifle that has a 16" (or 18" or 24") barrel and you cut it down to 14.5" (an AR for example) then under the wording of the law you've created a prohibited firearm... but if you buy a 14.5" upper from your friend (or a gunsmith or a store) and install it on your AR then you have not done anything wrong and CFC will issue you a revised registration certificate showing the new barrel length.

Technically speaking an AR upper is NOT a firearm... only the lower is. If I own 1 lower and 1 upper then an arguement can be made (by CFC maybe) that the upper is part of the firearm and modifying the upper but cutting or sawing is therefore modifying the firearm. But if I own more than 1 upper... if my 20" upper that came with my AR stays on my AR and I buy another upper and then modify that upper by dissassembing it to individual pieces and have the barrel modified by a gunsmith. If that barrel is shortened to 7" or 10.5" or 14.5" (whatever) and the upper reassembled and that new shorter upper is then swapped with the 20" upper and I sell my 20" upper and re-register my AR as a shorter barrel length... have I actually contravened the law in technical terms?

The response/opinion of CFC and RCMP (in past) has been that the above constituted a legal change to the firearm through installation of either factory available or commercially manufactered parts and was NOT considered the creation of a "Prohibited" firearm.

The precedent exists to legally make the barrel reduction change... the only question is what steps are necessary to comply with the law. Clearly if an individual buys an AR, takes it home, cuts a chunk off the barrel and the end result is a barrel under 457mm then you'll probably be guilty of creating a "Prohibited" firearm. But if you buy a short barrel upper and exchange it... or if you have a commercial entity "professionally" shorten the barrel then that has been accepted by CFC as legal.

The real issue is who exactly is "accepted" by CFC/RCMP as being allowed to legally shorten a barrel. The law doesn't actually state that I can't "cut" my barrel, it states that I can't cut, saw or alter my firearm if it results in...

If the barrel isn't in the firearm... technically am I cutting or sawing the firearm? If the firearm is changed to a "receiver/frame only" registration... then can I cut or saw the barrel... and once work is completed re-register the frame only to the new "shorter" description?

Can I take my barrel out of the gun... modify my barrel and sell it to you and you then put it in your gun? Is that okay?

The law is so unclear on all of this... and there is so much history of CFC/RCMP accepting changed descriptions (on AR's) with reduced barrel lengths... that I can't imagine any court upholding that portion of the legislation except in the most blatant cases of "sawed off shotgun" type scenarios. BUT... having said that... personally, if I was an individual and wanted to shorten an AR upper that I had I would NOT do it myself, at home with a saw... I would remove the upper half and have a gunsmith do it professionally. That would give me strong legal basis to argue any "charges" that any authority might contemplate bringing later. The work was commercially done, legally registered (don't foregt to send in the change of description and ask for a revised certificate). Always PYA.

Mark
 
I guess it is all academic as I prefer long barrels. Then, for discussion's sake, what about a prohibited rifle being shortened? Take an HK91 and 51 it? (Not that I have one or anything...)
 
Of course... if you use a Rock River Arms "Pistol" lower (exact same lower just with "Pistol Only" stamped on side to make BATF in the US happy)... then none of this matters as the gun is considered to be a "Handgun" and not a rifle meaning you can reduce the overall length to whatever you like and you can take a hacksaw and cut the barrel if you want... just don't go shorter than 106mm.

Aren't our laws stupid? Aren't the people who create and pass them even dumber?

Mark :runaway:
 
Not to stir the clouds, but I actually asked a member of the firearms TF here in Quebec on this barrel topic and he mentioned this, same as quoted from Mark:



(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,

(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or

(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

His interpretation, good or bad, explained to me, is that if there is no 'adaptation from' ie the rifle remains a rifle, following the letter of the law, you are good to go if the barrel length remains within its class. Mods still need to be declared within due time.
 
Question about threading 1/2 x 28, I am still building my AR and obviously have not got to the barrel and upper portion yet. In regards to the threading on the end of the AR barrel, is the barrel diameter reduced my milling, then threaded, or is the diameter of the barrel the same throughout, but with threads on on end? I hope I explained this properly, for example my Ruger 10/22 bull barrel is threaded for 1/2 x 28, but is reduced in diameter on the end, probably by a lather or mill,

I didn't know if after the barrel was "shortened", you could just use a tap and thread the end, or if you need access to a lathe to lessen the diameter.
 
ajayofcanada said:
Question about threading 1/2 x 28, I am still building my AR and obviously have not got to the barrel and upper portion yet. In regards to the threading on the end of the AR barrel, is the barrel diameter reduced my milling, then threaded, or is the diameter of the barrel the same throughout, but with threads on on end? I hope I explained this properly, for example my Ruger 10/22 bull barrel is threaded for 1/2 x 28, but is reduced in diameter on the end, probably by a lather or mill,

I didn't know if after the barrel was "shortened", you could just use a tap and thread the end, or if you need access to a lathe to lessen the diameter.
Click to expand...

Barrels need to be turned to .505 then threaded to 1/2-28 witch will produce a diameter of about .490 to .495. You can get the threading die from brownells or turn it on a lathe.
 
Mark

Thanks for sharing your experience. I completely agree with you the CFC has no issue changing the barrel length on a firearm by changing uppers, installing a new barrel, etc. While I worked at Lever Arms, where we ran into problems was when we had a number of ARs we wanted to shorten by cutting down the installed barrel. This was a definite no-go from them, despite starting and remaining restricted. We ended up having to manufacture new barrels and install them, which the CFC had no problem with.

I apologize if I was not clear, I was not trying to say it is impossible to reduce the barrel length of a restricted firearm, just that you cannot do so by cutting down the existing barrel if it results in barrel lengths less than those specified in the criminal code. As we have both experienced, there are ways around it.
 
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