Shortmag myths

Jayph

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Now that these have been out for awhile and they seem to be fairly popular I was wondering about a few things.

Do the short mags actually produce less recoil than there long action counterparts?

Can you trust them to feed reliably?

Do you like your short mag?

now that Iam down to a .25-06 being my largest cartridge I need a rifle for moose and elk and am really considering a .300 WSM in a Coyote light.
 
Same bullet at same pressure, in same rifles will produce same recoil...

The only difference is you get a shorter and slightly lighter rifle...
 
Same bullet at same pressure, in same rifles will produce same recoil...

The only difference is you get a shorter and slightly lighter rifle...

What your saying is true .But what he would like to know is in diffrent rifles
short mag to standerd rifle . I think there is a diffrents with the larger chambers
of the short mag . But weight of the rifle also plays a big part .

I like the short mag .No feeding problems .shoots great . I like the fact mostly the non belted case for
reloading is the big thing on my list . I have 2 short mags and 3 long mag rifles Like both but for
reloading I will take the short mag .
 
I'm curious about any feeding issues as well.

I've heard they don't feed. I've heard they feed very well.:confused:

I'm contemplating building a 25-300 WSM but if It's going to be a pain in the ass to make it feed I'll build something else.
 
Same bullet at same pressure, in same rifles will produce same recoil...

The only difference is you get a shorter and slightly lighter rifle...

Not really - same bullet at same MV with same amount of powder in same weight rifle will do that.
 
Same bullet at same pressure, in same rifles will produce same recoil...

The only difference is you get a shorter and slightly lighter rifle...


I would have to disagree with you on this. None of the recoil equations I have seen use pressure. For example a 30-06 has substantially more recoil than a 308win but are both loaded to the same pressure or the 308win maybe loaded slightly higher.

I have loaded down a 300 win Mag and 300 WSM to 308 levels and they recoil more than a 308. In those cases the pressure would have been significantly less in the 300 WM and WSM due to the reduced loads but still burn more powder.

Recoil is based on bullet weight, velocity and grains of powder. So if one cartridge is more efficient and achieves the same velocity with less powder it will have less recoil. So the WSM has slightly less recoil than the 300 Win Mag.
 
If you want to figure out recoil, figure for KE of the bullet, then weigh the rifle, and run the formula backwards.
Recoil is never more than the KE into the bullet, as physics states for every action, there is an equal, opposite reaction. In the case of recoil, the "bullet" weighs between 6 and 20 lbs (or WAY more), depending on your flavour.
 
The 300 SAUM feeds well when I load the cartridge short enough for the mag. If you are worried about it, use the SAUM over the WSM. WSM has a steeper shoulder.
 
I think the whole feeding issue with the short mags comes into play when you try to re-barrel a rifle that was designed for another cartridge. Often the feed rails have to be modified, and that is very tricky work. I know of 2 gunsmiths who will not do that ever again. If the rifle was designed from the ground up to feed short mag cartridges then it should work as advertised.
 
I had a 270 WSM that wouldn't feed factory ammo. After some work it would feed but not chamber. Sold it. My first and last WSM. Oh and it was brand new factory chambered for 270WSM. It was accurate though once it was almost working right.
 
Here's my thoughts.......If you had 3 rifles, all exactly the same weight, all with the exact same weight design, all shooting cartridges at exactly the same velocity, but one was in 300 winchester mag...........one in 300 H&H..........one in 300 winchester short mag; blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
As for feeding; there are many factory rifles built in the WSM cartridges that have had issues with feeding...........there was at one time a gunsmith in or around Kamloops that was making a very good living making the factory WSM's and RSUM's feed reliably. does this mean that they can't feed, no, but the factories have had a more difficult time with them due to their squat shape. I tend to think this is the reason that Savage moved to their straight feed magazine.
Conversly, the 300 H&H is renouned as the best feeding cartridge ever.
Others may disagree with these statements, but they are reality. Does this make the short mag cartridges junk; no, but they are a different animal to deal with.
Mike
 
I would have to disagree with you on this. None of the recoil equations I have seen use pressure. For example a 30-06 has substantially more recoil than a 308win but are both loaded to the same pressure or the 308win maybe loaded slightly higher.

Right, I should have said loaded the same. But the wsm can reach same speeds with 5% less powder. Point is, there is not enough difference that anyone would be able to tell.

Both tend to use the same barrel length, so other than 1/2" of action, there really is no reason to pick one over the other. I have had 3 short mags and several Win Mags and they all fed perfectly, other than one short mag needed the rails polished to remove some burrs...
 
I have a 270 wsm and a 300 wsm, odds are if you are getting a wsm it will be a lighter rifle, therefore it will kick more.

Second, The wsms feed awesome as long as your mag is a single stack.
 
I currently have 2 WSMs. Neither has ever had a problem feeding well. Not a huge test group, but thats what I have.

As for recoil, I don't have too much experience with a 300Win Mag, but I have lots of time behind a 300WSM and a 30-06. As far as I can tell, the 300WSM doesn't kick any harder than the 30-06, and it's noticably less than a 300WM. All rifles being Winchester model 70s. I don't know how they beat the physics with the "equal and opposite reaction" not being "equal" but my shoulder tells me there is a difference.
 
A few thoughts and points on regular vs short mage. Look at the factory pressure spec's, the shorts are loaded to higher pressures. Also, there've been reports that the shorts were using special powders at first that were not available to the handloading market. This is changing as evidenced by some of the new magnum rifle powders comming out. No new trick here, Remington did this for years when they bought out the 7mm rem mag. It uses 7828 powder, which was not commercially available for years, and handloaders had much trouble duplicating spec's of the factory loads.

The laws of physics still apply though, it would be interesting to see a full equal comparison between shorts, standards and longs, with the following rider:
-same pressure spec.
-same throat lead / freebore
-same weight and barrel length / contour. (this one is cute, look at how thick / thin some of these are, even in the same manufacture. This will change your recoil.)
and all of this in a common action designed to handle any one of them.
I would hazzard a guess that there ain't a helluva lot of major differences once you level the playing field.

One very handy feature in going for one of the more established players (ie: 300 win mag vs almost any other one) is that if you lose your ammo in the field, odd are real good that you can find a box in the middle of nowhere. Try to find the exotics at your local co-op or hardware store.

Last note, why all the variations? Simple. Gotta be / want / have something different and that means sell more guns. A major manufacture's rep was overheard at a large show stating that for every new caliber they put out, they will sell around 50,000 rifles for it. Gun junkies R Us! Besides, they really are just like women. Everyone has their prefferences as to what the ideal one should do / be / have, etc. It would be pretty stale out there if all the women only came in a few basic variations.

Myself, I have owned 4 300 win mags, and 3 300 short mags, 2 win, 1 rem. The meanest kicker was one 300 win short with handloads in a Savage 10. Same caliber in a 16 was not bad at all, heavier barrel in that version for some reason. The rem 300 saum was a model 7. "Magnum contour" barrel kept the recoil down and made it very nose heavy to carry, sold it quick. The real kicker, and not literally, is my custom 98 in 300 win mag, with a lightweight contour 23" barrel in a custom synthetic stock, weighing 7 3/4 lbs loaded, is actually rather decent to shoot. Better than any of the others. Guess which one I kept?
 
I have read that the short magnums, with their shorter, more compact, more efficient (burning) powder column, produce increased velocity over their non magnum counterparts, using less powder and with slightly less 'felt' recoil. The site was quite technical and actually had me convinced I may have believed it. Possibly. What I do believe is that I can perceive no difference in recoil between a magnum/non-magnum comparison in the same caliber. :)

Anyway, my BLR in .270 WSM feeds flawlessly every single time, as a lever action should. Cannot speak to the bolts or semis.

I absolutely love my WSM and will never shoot it enough to be worried about premature throat/barrel wear that some experts portent.
 
This is not a scientific comparison but an personal observation when i load 70gr. imr 4831 with a165gr bullet in my wsm and the exact load in my 300H+H you will definitely know which caliber is which when you pull the trigger the wsm and the 300H+H basically the same working range with same powders the difference is the pressure curve long pressure curve H+H short pressure curve wsm.
 
This is not a scientific comparison but an personal observation when i load 70gr. imr 4831 with a165gr bullet in my wsm and the exact load in my 300H+H you will definitely know which caliber is which when you pull the trigger the wsm and the 300H+H basically the same working range with same powders the difference is the pressure curve long pressure curve H+H short pressure curve wsm.

Yes that is exceptionally "unscientific" aka "imagination". Pressure curve is related to powder, not cartridge.
 
I had a 270 WSM that wouldn't feed factory ammo. After some work it would feed but not chamber. Sold it. My first and last WSM. Oh and it was brand new factory chambered for 270WSM. It was accurate though once it was almost working right.
What brand rifle was it that wouldn't feed properly?
 
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