Shorty, Archangel, CASM, Range report

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calgarycowboy

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I bought a shorty, stripped it down and cleaned up the gallon of cosmoline is was lathered in, put it in a archangel stock and put a CASM on top. Gave er a coat or two of krylon and stole a sightron 8-32x56 of one of my bolt guns. I also removed the flash hider... sacrilege?
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I loaded up 100 rounds of 168 amax with freebie range brass and varget in 0.1 grain increments from 40.1-41.0. Ive heared that 41-42gr of varget is the most you want to use in these guns, hopefully I can find a good load in what I have here.
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And just to compare it to the ol .223 round found in most semi autos.
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Going to the range tomorrow early to do some break in and load development, this rifle is factory other than the stock and scope mount. I'll post up results when I get back.
 
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The archangel is very comfortable, it wasn't a drop in fit but it wasn't very difficult to get it to fit properly either. There is a good write up on how to install a norinco receiver to the promag somewhere around here, it might be on Mystic Precisions page.
I made it out to burn some powder today. I am very pleased with the stock and the scope mount and the cheap ass norinco rifle too. This is my first experience with a semi auto and it is fn awesome. I am a big fan of detachable magazines and auto loading rifles now! I was expecting the rifle to group around 1.5-3'' at 100 yd. which it did. I fired 10 shots of 10 different loads in 5 shot groups; the best being about an inch, the worst being about 3.5'' and average of 2.25-2.5''. There was one load that really suprised me though, the lightest load (40.1gr) put four rounds through one hole. I used that load to sight in the gun so I was only able to reference this one group but Im pretty freakin happy about it.
The bad part... each time I put a new magazine in the gun the first shot would be a complete flier, I found it a few times and it was close to 7'' off POA. The other 4 shots would group as expected. WTF? It didnt seem to matter if I charged the rifle lightly or with authority, the first shot would do its own thing with every load every time... Anybody have any experience with this?
40.1-40.6gr (and a little Canadaammo advertising)
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40.7-41gr
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I could really feel the increase in recoil from the lighter loads to the hotter loads and the lighter loads flung the spent cases a fair bit further than the hotter. It was a wicked time though, I am hooked on the m305 for sure. hopefully the short barrel and low velocity load can stabilize the 168 a ways out... guess we'll see.
If anybody has any tips on the first shot flier let me know!
 
Calgary - your comment about the flier is interesting since I find the same. I've been assuming that it was the last round in the mag that was the flier. Some have commented that the lack of pressure from the following rounds, causes the bolt to sit differently for the last round. Not sure that I buy this but it's clear that something causes single round fliers.

Do you know for sure that it is just your first round?

P.s. Your first group is impressive. Just shows how well the rifle can shoot is the stars align.
 
Do use the bolt release to load the first round or do you use the CH?

I assume you are using the Charging Handle as the bolt relapse is pretty small unless you replace it with an aftermarket BR......

Try it holding the CH fully to the rear and let go. That may help the first shot fliers.......

Cheers!
 
Nice work and that first group looks really promising.

However, your loads for Varget are all less than Lee recommends as a starting load. Do you have a reloading manual?
 
I am so gonna get some 168s........that first group is ASTONISHING.
So no mods other than the Archangel stock and a scope eh, and handloads.
Nice report Sir, thanks for taking the time.
I too, have a flyer problem I can often get a cloverleaf but never all 5 touching,2 shots wide by about an inch. Always thought that was just me
 
Thanks for the comments guys.

Pr589, The flier is always the first round, every time I load a new magazine... I have tried waiting longer and less time between magazine changes for barrel heat reasons but it makes no difference.

notsorich, I do use the charging handle as you mention the bolt release is pretty small. I thought of this being the issue as well. Pulling it all the way back and letting her go (which feels awesome to do) and letting it go gently produce the same results with the first round. The first mod people do and that is recommended by the m14 gurus is the spring guide, I wonder if a better fitting spring and guide would get the bolt home better when manually cycled?

SoBored, I referenced the sierra load data posted on 6mm and starting load for the 168 SMK is 38.5 varget. This is also load data for a bolt action rifle, not an m14. I am assuming the Lee guide is the same. I selected the loads based off of what works and what doesnt from the people actually shooting an m14 and not a single book. I was able to compile multiple numbers from various shooters and go from there. Talk of bolts slamming back and such way before case pressure signs. Another great source of information regarding handloading for the m14 is on m14.ca. I searched 3 loading manuals for which large rifle primer to use in a semi auto and came up unsucessful. However the internet machine quickly led me to choosing CCI BR2.

All this being said I should be using IMR 4895 for this rifle but Ive had good luck with varget and like how temperature stable it is.

I gotta get back out and shoot some more of the load that worked... dunno if itll be today though.
 
The only mod I've done on my 305 is a Op Rod Spring Guide from M14.CA--no first shot variance, but I did not shoot enough with the OEM ORSG to see if there was a problem initially.
 
calgarycowboy said:
Thanks for the comments guys.

Pr589, The flier is always the first round, every time I load a new magazine... I have tried waiting longer and less time between magazine changes for barrel heat reasons but it makes no difference.
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Try a bolt release tab.
I found that when I pulled the racking tab on the charging handel as opposed to depressing the tab that the first round flyer was not as great. Although that is one thing I have learned about piston rifles opposed to di semi's. That the first one always has a different poi than the rest. But this can be over come with reloading and noting roughly were the first one prints then making corrections based of that for the other 4 rounds in your group.
 
I don't know why I mentioned it, there's nothing wrong with shooting lighter loads. When I started load development, (I never finished BTW), for my M14, I was using IMR 4895 and my most accurate group came in at a light load that was also under the recommended starting load. That's why I found this interesting. Yes Varget is supposed to be one of the more temperature stable powders around this burn rate.

Here is a resource I like that's free. It says 308 with the 165 grain bullet uses 42.0-46.0 Varget.
ht tp://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
 
I snuck off to try repeat the really sweet group I got yesterday at 40.1 varget...

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So it isnt a magic load after all but for whatever reason the first shot was on target every time which I am very pleased with.
Time to buy some 4895 and see what happens with that!
Feel free to share your load data if you've got something that works.

CASM is keeping zero so far, thanks Frank! I thought about painting it but I think some things should be left black.
 
With the 165 grain I would start @ 40 grains of IMR 4895 and go up to 45 in 0.5 grain increments and then if anything stands out move around that charge by 0.2 grains and see what shows up. You might want to try a 150 grain bullet as mine does well with 150s. Try the 150 grain PRVI FMJs, Mystic precision sells them in bulk for $225 per 1000 so if you can work up a good load with them, it's worth the time and effort.
 
calgarycowboy said:
I snuck off to try repeat the really sweet group I got yesterday at 40.1 varget...

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So it isnt a magic load after all but for whatever reason the first shot was on target every time which I am very pleased with.
Time to buy some 4895 and see what happens with that!
Feel free to share your load data if you've got something that works.

CASM is keeping zero so far, thanks Frank! I thought about painting it but I think some things should be left black.
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I would suggest checking your scope to see if it's pouched.
Ertaic POI changes would lead me to suggest this response.
 
Im no expert but would suggest scope buggered too. I had the same experience earlier this year, first shot on the nail rest of em all over. Turned out to be paralax was whacked. Didnt want to believe it but a different scope proved it to be true...Great dealer, got me sorted out for free :)
 
Been busy with work, no time for fun stuff or even CGN... I had that scope on my bolt gun and put 10 shots in less than an inch group a week before putting it on the 305. I'll swap it back and try it out when I get time. Also have a pound of imr4895 to try. Tests to come
 
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