Shorty M14 issue

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WWlll, thanks! That video is exactly what is happening with my targets, except that for whatever reason, the epicyclic motion of my rounds seem to start out much wider then the ones in the video.
 
Xman said:
WWlll, thanks! That video is exactly what is happening with my targets, except that for whatever reason, the epicyclic motion of my rounds seem to start out much wider then the ones in the video.
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Face palmmmmmm....

Im less offended than I am just dismayed. I don't know if youre making this up, or of you just mixed your targets up, but just know that what youre saying is happening is actually impossible. Im-poss-i-ble... Think about it man. You really think your rounds are swining out 8inches to the left, right, up, down of center at 100y, then somehow making their way back to POA at 200-300? Thats insanity. Totally impossible.

You are totally misinterpreting the video WWIII posted.


You clearly dont understand what the video was demonstrating.
 
Simple answer, the bullet's GPS could not correct the trajectory at 100m but had adequate time at 200m+. You are shooting GPS guided bullets :)
 
greg11 said:
Face palmmmmmm....

Im less offended than I am just dismayed. I don't know if youre making this up, or of you just mixed your targets up, but just know that what youre saying is happening is actually impossible. Im-poss-i-ble... Think about it man. You really think your rounds are swining out 8inches to the left, right, up, down of center at 100y, then somehow making their way back to POA at 200-300? Thats insanity. Totally impossible.

You are totally misinterpreting the video WWIII posted.


You clearly dont understand what the video was demonstrating.
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Alright man, you win. I'll stop bothering you good folks with my silly issues. I'll free the internetz up for more important issues and discussions. And sorry for pushing you in a corner and leaving you no choice but to be a condescending ####. At first I thought you just had an attitude problem, a superiority complex and poor upbringing but I now realize its all on me for posting on issues you don't approve and without having checked with you first to determine the validity of the subject.

Me and my silly fake issues are out of your hair...
 
Xman, have you tried changing the specs of your handloads (powder, type of bullet)? Curious if that'll make a difference. Do factory loads perform the same way (albeit less accurate in general)?
Maybe there's an electromagnet or gravimetric phenomenon at the 100y mark. :p
 
WWWIII's video shows pitch and yaw of a very long versus caliber VLD bullet through to 200 yards. It tells nothing of its relationship to it's line line of departure, which will determine grouping of successive fired projectiles.

Where in the video does it show a bullet in a 8MOA group at 100 and then in a 1MOA group at 300.

You are using a fine video to prove your point and the video has nothing to do with your point.:eek:

Throughout the bullets entire flight to stabilization, it was pitching and yawing along it's Longitudinal axis, the "pathway", that will determine it's final resting place. Remember these projectiles are spinning around their longitudinal axis, pitching and yawing till stabilization occurs. They are not flying around a longitudinal axis like an out of control rocket someone is trying to steer to a tank, either by radio control or by wire. Seem's someone here has watched to many ATR video's.
 
Xman said:
Alright man, you win. I'll stop bothering you good folks with my silly issues. I'll free the internetz up for more important issues and discussions. And sorry for pushing you in a corner and leaving you no choice but to be a condescending ####. At first I thought you just had an attitude problem, a superiority complex and poor upbringing but I now realize its all on me for posting on issues you don't approve and without having checked with you first to determine the validity of the subject.

Me and my silly fake issues are out of your hair...
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It is physics Xman it cannot change I really think that it is not an issue with the ammunition or the rifle because it is delivering the goods at 200m and 300m perhaps have some one else shoot your ammunition in there rifle if it is the ammunition you will know
 
Savage said:
perhaps have some one else shoot your ammunition in there rifle if it is the ammunition you will know
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Also maybe try another shooter with factory ammo in your rifle?
And please, for the love of all things orderly :D start with 100m, then 200m then 300m and lable your hits 1 for 100m 2 for 200m... and aim at the same point the whole time, no holdovers.

I had an optics problem that had me scratching my head and wasting ammo trying to figure it out. Once I took a step back, had a coffee and set out a clear plan of attack, I found the problem.

Create a controlled environment and you'll figure this out.
 
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/epswerve.html
This work was done to investigate a question about the grouping ability of rifles at various ranges. Many shooters, including myself, have observed the strange phenomenon of a rifle that groups angularly smaller at long range than short range. In other words, a rifle that groups 1” at 100 yards grouping 1.5” at 200 yards (you would expect no less than 2” at 200 yards). There are abundant theories about why, how, or even if this phenomenon actually happens at all. The scope of this paper is to focus in on one mechanism that’s been used to explain this phenomenon: the mechanism of epicyclic swerve. Epicyclic swerve is the technical term for the corkscrew path that a bullet flies as its nose precesses around the flight path. Some people think that epicyclic swerve explains the observed phenomenon of angularly smaller groups at longer ranges.
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There are too many closed minded a-holes on the Boards
 
Sluggo_m14 said:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/epswerve.html


There are too many closed minded a-holes on the Boards
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That's comparing apples and oranges. First as to magnitude (8 moa vs 1 moa) and secondly as to actual group size. In the example given of a 1" group at 100 yards and a 1.5" group at 200 yards, the group size is still expanding, and certainly not shrinking. So for Xman, his 8" group at 100 yards would be at least an 8" group at 200 and 300 and that would make the 1 moa impossible.
 
Sluggo_m14 said:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/epswerve.html


There are too many closed minded a-holes on the Boards
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Don't open your mind so far that any dumb old idea can get in there, though. From the link you posted:

The bottom line is that epicyclic swerve cannot cause smaller angular groups at longer ranges. [...] Just to be clear about the conclusions of the modeling: The phenomenon of smaller angular groups at longer ranges was not disproven. The only thing I've shown is that if the phenomenon actually happens, epicyclic swerve is not the cause of it.
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subdermal said:
Don't open your mind so far that any dumb old idea can get in there, though. From the link you posted:
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Well the same can be said to the closed mined on this phenomenon.

Below is what Brian Litz (Ballistician) really says in his final conclusions on this subject as quoted from the Sniper‘s Hide forum in relation to his above posted quotes which were put in the wrong context to draw a final bias conclusion on this subject.

As for my own conclusion, I have experienced this phenomenon called epicyclic swerve but certainly not in the extremes Xman has. However I am open minded enough to conclude that maybe Xman’s bullets are unbalanced and flawed causing something to happen we don’t quite understand or maybe he just mixed up his grouping data, which ever... like Brian Litz has stated “there is just too much anecdotal evidence on this to ignore it“.


Brian Litz’s Quotes Below RE:
RE:http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=937430

Considering the actual bullet path, it's hard to say that such levels of pitching and yawing could be responsible for smaller MOA groups at longer range.
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As for the idea of bullets grouping smaller MOA at longer ranges...

There's too much anecdotal evidence on this to ignore it. The epicyclic swerve depicted in my videos might be a possible mechanism for it if the initial yaw amplitudes were high enough. However, in the video I posted, there was only a 25 rad/s initial yaw rate. The resulting 'corkscrew' flight path that results from that is very 'mild', as you can see in the trajectory plot. In other words, by the time the bullet gets to 100 yards, the radius of the spiral trajectory is less than one caliber. You can see a little 'wiggle' at the very beginning of the bullet path, but after that it settles out very nice.

I have tried, using this simulation, to create a combination of initial conditions that would cause a spiral trajectory severe enough to produce 1.5" groups at 100 yards and 2" groups at 200. No matter how I varied the initial conditions I was not able to create a series of shots that exhibited such dispersion. It would be very bold of me to say that epicyclic swerve is not the culprit for the common observation (of smaller MOA at longer range). I can say that I haven't been able to produce the effect in simulation with epicyclic swerve.

I believe that it is possible to shoot smaller MOA groups at longer range, but I don't know how. Some have suggested aiming errors like scopes not properly adjusted for parallax at close range as a possible reason and that sounds reasonable. So far, to my knowledge, there is not a proven explanation. If someone knows please tell us!

-Bryan
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RememberTheSomme said:
WWWIII's video shows pitch and yaw of a very long versus caliber VLD bullet through to 200 yards. It tells nothing of its relationship to it's line line of departure, which will determine grouping of successive fired projectiles.

Where in the video does it show a bullet in a 8MOA group at 100 and then in a 1MOA group at 300.

You are using a fine video to prove your point and the video has nothing to do with your point.:eek:

Throughout the bullets entire flight to stabilization, it was pitching and yawing along it's Longitudinal axis, the "pathway", that will determine it's final resting place. Remember these projectiles are spinning around their longitudinal axis, pitching and yawing till stabilization occurs. They are not flying around a longitudinal axis like an out of control rocket someone is trying to steer to a tank, either by radio control or by wire. Seem's someone here has watched to many ATR video's.
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Need I remind you...:rolleyes:

absolute nonsense. All rounds require a short distance to stabilize.

This will be my last post in this ridiculous thread.
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This sounds funny but I have seen this before in the military although very rare( seen it twice in 16 years)...guys would have a tighter group at a further range..it was all in there head really...they would see more of the target through their optic and try to over compensate by trying to be too accurate (if that makes any sense at all)...they can see the reticle moving around on the target too much at closer ranges and it would throw them off...

At a further range they could see less of the target and would hold the reticle on in a more steady consistent manner on their POA.

Thats is my 2 cents because obviously your rifle/optics seems too work fine.
 
Xman said:
I don't understand the anger and the accusation. Are you saying I'm making this up? Why would I make this stuff up? Do you guys think I have nothing better to do than to try to solve a non existing problem?

Why do you seem so offended? :confused:
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Because it's impossible.

Say you shoot a 8MOA group at 100 and a 1moa group at 300....

Some of your rounds miss high, some low, some left, some right. In order for this to work,the ones that miss right would have the be "steered" back to 1MOA at 300. The same "steering effect" must push those rounds than missed to the left back into 1MOA territory. Same for the high and low rounds. That's impossible.
 
Forget for a moment arguing about smaller MOA groups at a further distance, as that involves dividing the group size by the distance, and simply consider the absurdity of a group size, 8" that actually shrinks to 3" at 3x the distance.
 
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