Shot a Grizzly

[Gatehouse]

I've sure seen a lot of evidence to the contrary but am open to learning something. What's your basis for this statement?

A) My writing was less than perfect. It shoudl have read

Buckshot certainly penetrates less than a slug.

At close range the pattern of buckshot doesn't open up enough to really increase your potential of making a good hit, and at further distances, the pattern starts to open more, reducing the "mass of shot" potential.

B) Every time I've done a penetration test, slugs beat buckshot, hands down.

There have been a number of recorded cases of buckshot getting stopped on grizzly bears, just under the skin.

I've had friends complain that buckshot didn't work well on bears.

Finally, I've seen buckshot work well on black bears, (when struck in the head) and I've also seen it fail miserably (when hit in the body).

I was never the shooter, although much of the above gave me reason to do the penetration tests in wet and dry newsprint (as well as propane tanks) and also shooting at bear head targets at various ranges.

I used to carry OO or OOO shot and slugs when I carried shotguns for bear defense, but not any more.

 

[sheephunter]

Not much penetration capabilities there once the distance increases and the shot pattern starts to open up...

Agree with you there CC but I was talking about up close and personal where most shotgun encounters are bound to happen. I have no doubt those little balls would penetrate further. No saying that necessarily equates to more deadly but the question was penetration.

 

[sheephunter]

Every time I've done a penetration test, slugs beat buckshot, hands down.

What mediums have you done the tests in? What range? What size buck shot? How much further did slugs penetrate in wet newspaper than buckshot?

 

[Gatehouse]

]

What mediums have you done the tests in?

As I said above, wet and dry newsprint

Also, mostly for fun, I shot a old BBQ propane tank (Foster slugs and Brennekes sailed right through both sides of the tank. Buckshot bounced off. I also shot a 45 gallon drum, the buckshot penetrated one side, but didn't exit the other side, just dented it. I shot the drum with a .22 LR pistol and it had about the same effect as the buckshot.

What range?

10 feet to about 30 yards for the penetration testing, further for the bear head target, although I'm not 100% sure, it's been a few years.

What size buck shot?

OO and maybe OOO too.

How much further did slugs penetrate in wet newspaper than buckshot?

Quite a bit. The Brennekes are like shooting a hard cast bullet from a large rifle.

But as I said, it's been a few years. I shared much of what I did with many on CGN. A few other guys did similar tests, too. If it's a topic that interests you, try it out.

Of the ammo I tried, the Brenneke slugs really stood out.

 

[Omega]

A) My writing was less than perfect. It shoudl have read

Buckshot certainly penetrates less than a slug.

At close range the pattern of buckshot doesn't open up enough to really increase your potential of making a good hit, and at further distances, the pattern starts to open more, reducing the "mass of shot" potential.

B) Every time I've done a penetration test, slugs beat buckshot, hands down.

There have been a number of recorded cases of buckshot getting stopped on grizzly bears, just under the skin.

I've had friends complain that buckshot didn't work well on bears.

Finally, I've seen buckshot work well on black bears, (when struck in the head) and I've also seen it fail miserably (when hit in the body).

I was never the shooter, although much of the above gave me reason to do the penetration tests in wet and dry newsprint (as well as propane tanks) and also shooting at bear head targets at various ranges.

I used to carry OO or OOO shot and slugs when I carried shotguns for bear defense, but not any more.

I will have to say I've had the exact opposite results when doing penetration tests. I just finished a round of them for a little project on the weekend.
While I agree that the slug may be the better choice at any given distance, I did my side by side penetration comparison tests at 10 feet. With gel set at 10 feet from the muzzle double and triple ought buck out penetrated 1 oz lead slugs by more than twice as much, on average 11" for the slug and over 25 1/2" for buck.
The lead slugs lost 1/2 their weight in 11".
Slugs like Barnes and Hevishot penetrated much deeper in some cases over 36"
Gate you don't want to forget that weight isn't everything when it comes to penetration.

 

[Gatehouse]

]

I will have to say I've had the exact opposite results when doing penetration tests. I just finished a round of them for a little project on the weekend.
While I agree that the slug may be the better choice at any given distance, I did my side by side penetration comparison tests at 10 feet. With gel set at 10 feet from the muzzle double and triple ought buck out penetrated 1 oz lead slugs by more than twice as much, on average 11" for the slug and over 25 1/2" for buck.
The lead slugs lost 1/2 their weight in 11".

In gelatin, I could see that happening. Introduce something hard (like bone) or somewhat tough (like wet, matted grizzly hide) or dry paper, and the buckshot slows down fast.

Still, at 10 feet, buckshot should smash the hell out of a bears skull. Personally I don't want to wait until it gets that close.

Slugs like Barnes and Hevishot penetrated much deeper in some cases over 36"

Did you try Brenneke slugs? Those out performed Foster slugs for me. Not much expansion, and they kept on trucking.

Gate you don't want to forget that weight isn't everything when it comes to penetration.

I don't believe that weight is everything in regards to penetration. Otherwise I'd be using 200gr bullets in .30 caliber rifles...And that ain't gonna happen.

 

[Foxer]

Gate you don't want to forget that weight isn't everything when it comes to penetration.

Of course not, but realistically everything is on the 'side' of the slug that is as a rule.

Generally speaking, all else being equal, where two masses with the same weight and momentum strike an object at similar velocities, the one with the higher sectional density would tend to penetrate better. This is pretty accepted.

In any application - a round ball will have less sectional density than a cylindrical shape.

Now - it's not quite that simple here because of course we're not talking about a 1 oz ball vs a 1 oz cylinder (which would be a little more 'apples to apples'. But a little math can help clarify the issue.

Momentum is the tendancy for an object in motion to stay in motion. Or, in simple terms - it describes how much energy would be needed to stop it.

a 55 grain bullet (buckshot) travelling at 1450 fps (which is a pretty good clip for buckshot) would have momentum of about 1.575 kg/ms.

That's pretty small. No matter how many other bullets there are, each one only has that much momentum.

A slug on the other hand has 125.293 kg/ms. That's a lot more. It's going to take a lot more energy acting against that slug to bring it to a stop.

Now - the fact that teh slug has more surface area than the pellet will mean more energy will be pushed against it. So you're not going to get 100 times better penetration obviously And now we get into a series of variables for which we cannot account (or at least it's beyond my skill). That's things like the resistance of the skin, the deformation of the slug vs the deformation of pellets, etc etc. So - medium matters.

But as you can see, the slug has a lot more energy to work with. That becomes especially valuable when you hit something like bone. I know i've shot lots of fallen trees with slugs and buck - the slug outpenetrates.

Now - you start playing with things like 'hevi-shot' and 'brenneke' and so on and results could go back and forth - you're changing weight and mass and hardness etc.

But - all else being equal generally speaking slugs will have better penetrating power. Especially where something needs to get 'broken', like bone.

 

[Omega]

]

Did you try Brenneke slugs? Those out performed Foster slugs for me. Not much expansion, and they kept on trucking.

Couldn't get my hands on any, they aren't an off the shelf item up here. The Hevishot is similar to the Brenneke in that it is a hardened material, much harder than lead in this case 1 1/4 oz of compressed nickel and tungsten.
The huge frontal area on the lead slugs induced rapid expansion and they tore themselves apart and massive expansion equals reduced penetration. The buck looks like it could be loaded and shot again.
In my tests I've found gel to be much tougher on bullets than actual game.

 

[Foxer]

The lead slugs lost 1/2 their weight in 11".

Hmm. Sounds like the slug wasn't up to the impact. That would tend to account for your results.

As others have mentioned, i've had different results in different medium. It would be interesting to see if brenneke's (harder slug) would change that outcome.

 

[sheephunter]

But - all else being equal generally speaking slugs will have better penetrating power.

Not in soft tissue...or geletain....not sure how how come to that conclusion when there are loads of studies to prove it wrong, especially at extremely close range. There are no absolutes or even generally speakings!

 

[Foxer]

The Hevishot is similar to the Brenneke in that it is a hardened material, much harder than lead in this case 1 1/4 oz of compressed nickel and tungsten.

Well i'ts also heavier than lead tho - you'll get better penetration than lead for any bullet of the same size, you've increased it's mass (and it's momentum).

The huge frontal area on the lead slugs induced rapid expansion and they tore themselves apart and massive expansion equals reduced penetration. The buck looks like it could be loaded and shot again.
In my tests I've found gel to be much tougher on bullets than actual game.

Very interesting. I wish i had that kind of set up - that sounds like a hell of a lot of fun

But yeah - i guess the lesson there is 'pick your slug'. If it comes apart and disintegrates, you've lost all the advantages to having a slug.

 

[Foxer]

Not in soft tissue...or geletain....not sure how how come to that conclusion when there are loads of studies to prove it wrong, especially at extremely close range. There are no absolutes or even generally speakings!

Hmm - i think you'd have to post those studies before i could answer that. I think you'll find in most cases there was a failure of the slug.

 

[Omega]

But - all else being equal generally speaking slugs will have better penetrating power. Especially where something needs to get 'broken', like bone.

All I did was set up 10 feet from the gel and shoot factory l;ead slugs and buck. I don't know whether that makes things equal or not in my tests. the slugs had a higher MV and were out penetrated by the buck by twice as much.

The quote below has to do with self defense with a human opponent but it does high light the fact that total combined cross sectional area of buckshot does factor int its effectiveness.

For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body

 

[Foxer]

Just for fun (and take it for what it is) i dug up the 'box o truth' test for you.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Note the conclusions:

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Generally speaking, slugs will outpenetrate buck. Not only that - but larger buck will tend to out penetrate smaller pellet buck. And so on.

 

[Omega]

Well i'ts also heavier than lead tho - you'll get better penetration than lead for any bullet of the same size, you've increased it's mass (and it's momentum). .

A 1 1/4 oz slug is still 1 1/4 oz no matter what it is made out of...

 

[Foxer]

All I did was set up 10 feet from the gel and shoot factory l;ead slugs and buck. I don't know whether that makes things equal or not in my tests. the slugs had a higher MV and were out penetrated by the buck by twice as much.

Yeah but they lost half their weight right? obviously for whatever reason it came apart, or tumbled or did SOMETHING that one wouldn't want to see one's slug do.

Like i say - really interesting. I envy you having that setup to play with.

 

[Foxer]

A 1 1/4 oz slug is still 1 1/4 oz no matter what it is made out of...

That's got little to do with it. We're talking about penetration, and if the slug begins to deform or comes apart, or tumbles, then the energy is not going to be applied effectively or in the same way. For example - you'll get less penetration but a bigger wound channel if the slug flattens. That may or may not be a good thing. If it tumbles, the energy is no longer expended in the same linear fashion, and penetration will suffer.

It's no different than a bullet - what penetrates better, a solid or an expanding round? the Solid. Doesn't leave much of a wound channel of course, but it's the same principle.

 

[Omega]

Generally speaking, slugs will outpenetrate buck. Not only that - but larger buck will tend to out penetrate smaller pellet buck. And so on.

This wasn't general it was a pretty specific test.
Perma Gel is ordnance grade which means that it meets all FBI and military spec for bullet testing. In other words it is an accepted representative media to compare to flesh.
Wood, or paper or clay aren't accepted as ordnance grade media.

 

[Omega]

That's got little to do with it. We're talking about penetration, and if the slug begins to deform or comes apart, or tumbles, then the energy is not going to be applied effectively or in the same way. For example - you'll get less penetration but a bigger wound channel if the slug flattens. That may or may not be a good thing. If it tumbles, the energy is no longer expended in the same linear fashion, and penetration will suffer.

It's no different than a bullet - what penetrates better, a solid or an expanding round? the Solid. Doesn't leave much of a wound channel of course, but it's the same principle.

The fact of the matter is the lead slugs did expand and it cost them dearly in the penetration department. The energy or momentum couldn't over come the construction.

 

[Omega]

Hmm - i think you'd have to post those studies before i could answer that. I think you'll find in most cases there was a failure of the slug.

I also shot hardened copper plated #4 lead buck and it out penetrated all the larger buck shot. So construction figures into the penetration of the buck too.