Shot a Grizzly

[Foxer]

Better of course as the Hevishot did. But that wasn't the point that I was trying to make. Big lead slugs with wide flat meplats do not automatically out penetrate everything.

Well - there's a fair bit of discussion right there about what's better even just discussing slugs. You can get slugs that are very round, you can get slugs with a partially flat meplats and you can get slugs that are almost completely flat, like a target pellet on steriods almost. Obviously, rounder will penetrate better all else being equal. But flatter will cause more damage and create a bigger wound cavity. But - will not penetrate bone as well. So which is better? It's an entirely new discussion

But i will draw you to the point of the report that sheephunter posted - when slugs are fired at similar speeds as buckshot (slightly slower actually, by something like 50 - 100 fps) they survive the impact and DO in fact penetrate better. Of course - that was just one test.

You've raised some really interesting points tho, and I really would love to see how that copper coated 00 buck would do. I think that would be very interesting.

How about this - i will concede the point that if slugs significantly deform or break up (which they WILL at higher velocity impacts) then they will not out penetrate buck. So in circumstances that would cause the slug to fail in that fashion, buckshot is likely the better penetrator provided that it does not fail.

Fair enough?

 

[Foxer]

There isn't a week goes by that I'm not shooting something into the gel. There are so very many variables involved that affect outcome it can make your head swim!

Lucky bastard Sounds like it's 'bill cosby meets rambo' out your way, lots of jello and guns I'm totally jealous.

The best I ever get is just seeing the effect on animals - I spend a nearly indecent amount of time poking thru guts and bodies looking at performance, but if you think there's variables when shooting into a constant medium like gel, you can imagine how hard it is to draw solid conclusions from performance on animals. You can learn a lot, but obviously no two shots are ever the same.

I don't load shotgun so it would be factory or nothing in that department.

I bet we could get someone out your way to load up some interesting rounds and send them to you for testing. Flat vs Round meplat vs copper buck at 5 10 and 15 yards. It would also be interesting to try some of the hard cast heat treated slugs out there.

 

[8ball]

21 pages to date and I'm just to find out this thread... Congratulations Camp Cook.

 

[Omega]

Foxer in my very first post on these tests I said I felt that slugs were the better choice and I still think that but there are situations where buckshot out penentrates slugs, 10 feet is one of them that I've discovered.
I've never shot a bear with buckshot. I've shot a few with slugs and a handful of those I head shot with spectacular results. All the slugs were the simple lead kind all completely penetrated.
But I do need to kill a couple with some buck now!

 

[Foxer]

Foxer in my very first post on these tests I said I felt that slugs were the better choice and I still think that

Oh i know, we're just hashing out minutia, but that's fun too isn't it?

I've shot a few with slugs and a handful of those I head shot with spectacular results. All the slugs were the simple lead kind all completely penetrated.

Yeah, slugs are well known killers at hunting ranges, but that was probably at a bit of range, probably more than 10 yards i would guess.

Mind you - even with the 'limited' penetration these guys were getting of 18 inches at 3 yards, i'd have to say the wound channel (which was most impressive) would still be pretty damn devastating to any animal, and a hit on any critical area like neck, head, shoulder, etc would probably be a real show stopper for the bear.

I suppose we could get a pig's skull and test it out - mind you i wouldn't want to be the guy shooting at 3 yards might get a little soggy. You can buy pigs heads skin on for 25 bucks at the local market here.

Rig some sort of media behind it to see how the slug did, assuming it penetrates all the way thru.

But I do need to kill a couple with some buck now!

OOOH - get the copper stuff!

 

[Omega]

Oh i know, we're just hashing out minutia, but that's fun too isn't it?

But of course.

Yeah, slugs are well known killers at hunting ranges, but that was probably at a bit of range, probably more than 10 yards i would guess.

A couple were at the same range as the test.

Mind you - even with the 'limited' penetration these guys were getting of 18 inches at 3 yards, i'd have to say the wound channel (which was most impressive) would still be pretty damn devastating to any animal, and a hit on any critical area like neck, head, shoulder, etc would probably be a real show stopper for the bear.

One lead slug entered at the juncture of the neck and body just alongside the back and tore up the one shoulder on the way to exiting very close to castrating the bear. Many people look at gel and think that it needs some bones or hair in it but I think that it does a remarkable job of averaging the combined effects of all those variables.

 

[Foxer]

A couple were at the same range as the test.

Wow - that's pretty ballsy Still - that's a very good sign, getting that kind of performance at those ranges. Guess the slug didn't fail bad enough to be a problem.

One lead slug entered at the juncture of the neck and body just alongside the back and tore up the one shoulder on the way to exiting very close to castrating the bear.

I'm guessing you didn't have to track that one too far

Many people look at gel and think that it needs some bones or hair in it but I think that it does a remarkable job of averaging the combined effects of all those variables.

Sure, but it'd be a hell of a lot more fun with the bones and hair

I dunno - i'd think for example penetration thru a human or deer would be different than a big bear for a variety of reasons (difference in hide elasticity and strenght, fat, muscle density, bone density, etc). But i'm sure it's pretty decent.

 

[Omega]

Wow - that's pretty ballsy

Nope no planning on my behalf as it often happens in the alders they got to that range on their own hook. It wasn't like I allowed them to get closer. I could happily live the rest of my life without another getting that close again.

Still - that's a very good sign, getting that kind of performance at those ranges. Guess the slug didn't fail bad enough to be a problem.

I didn't look upon the outcome as a failure of any kind, but then maybe you had to be there.

 

[Foxer]

Nope no planning on my behalf as it often happens in the alders they got to that range on their own hook. It wasn't like I allowed them to get closer. I could happily live the rest of my life without another getting that close again.

I bet the bear was thinking the same thing.

 

[dudu]

Shotgun Terminal Ballistics

I thought these tests are quite interesting, even if they are old ( 2006 I believe ):

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

 

[Foxer]

I thought these tests are quite interesting, even if they are old ( 2006 I believe ):

2006 is hardly 'old' in the gun world

Hey! - they did a brenneke test -
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conte...g/brenneke_r10/gelatin_slug_brenneke_r10.html

# Range: 3 yards
# Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
# Round: 12 gauge 2� Brenneke R10 slug
# Gelatin: 9'x9'x19' 10% ordinance gelatin block
# Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 25.5 inches (64.8 cm)
# Measured Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.5 to 16.0 inches (1.3 - 40.64 cm)

25.5 inches with the brenneke! I figured that'd hold up a little better than the foster style!

and up to 16 inches of stretch cavity! owie, i don't care WHO you are, that's gotta hurt!

Thanks for those sites sheephunter, it's a little 'home defense' for my personal tastes but the tests are really interesting. (plus, i learned how to 'calibrate' ballistics gel Next thanksgiving at mom's when i take the pellet gun to her fruit salad mold i'm blaming you of course )

 

[Camp Cook]

but then maybe you had to be there

WOW do I ever understand that statement...

Here I go out salmon fishing for the day and when I get back there is like 3 more pages...

 

[Camp Cook]

While I was out yesterday I did some penetration tests with rubber coated quasytruple 0 buck.

Trajectories of the 974gr pellets weren't quite as good as the 1411gr pellets but the seal that just about got one of the 1411gr pellets on its head disappeared and didn't come back.

Now on the other hand the the 6618gr flat meplat slugs I fired out had a terrible tragectory but the temporary wound cavities/displacement were huge.

I used fast flowing silty water as my test medium...

edit to add;

Just read the link to the Brenneke slugs.

That is why in this grizzly thread and yes it did start out as one my son had Brenneke slugs in his Dlask Rem 870 12 gauge that he was carrying when we went after the bear.

I would not consider using any other slug when I am in grizzly country wheras when I am in black bear country I know that blacks are not hard to stop/kill so just about any slug will work on them.

 

[Foxer]

While I was out yesterday I did some penetration tests with rubber coated quasytruple 0 buck.

Trajectories of the 974gr pellets weren't quite as good as the 1411gr pellets but the seal that just about got one of the 1411gr pellets on its head disappeared and didn't come back.

Now on the other hand the the 6618gr flat meplat slugs I fired out had a terrible tragectory but the temporary wound cavities/displacement were huge.

I used fast flowing silty water as my test medium...

I'll have to try that on some bears, if i can find some 500 lb line...

 

[Camp Cook]

Don't use monofiliment use braided line...

 

[Gibbs505]

I think that it was remmington who, some years ago, developed a solid copper slug with four 'petals' which broke of and spread apart. Anyone remember this?

Perhaps it was barnes?

 

[sheephunter]

I think that it was remmington who, some years ago, developed a solid copper slug with four 'petals' which broke of and spread apart. Anyone remember this?

Perhaps it was barnes?

Barnes makes the Expander...a one ounce solid copper slug....Federal did load it....not sure if they still do or not. I think it had six petals though.

 

[Foxer]

Barnes makes the Expander...a one ounce solid copper slug....Federal did load it....not sure if they still do or not. I think it had six petals though.

i think he's thinking of a frangible slug. There is one company still making them that i know of, but i'm not sure of it's value in this kind of an application? I think it's more marketed to prevent OVER penetration in some circumstances.

Or did i misunderstand you gibbs?

 

[phinton81]

I sure hope that my retirement will allow me the free time to shoot barrels of water, vats of gelatin, measure and re-measure entrance and exit wounds, split and re-split hairs, sift through gut piles, kill things just to see how my bullet worked and then spend hours debating my results with people I have never met.

No disrespect guys, this indeed would be paradise. I am truly envious as I sit in the office and look out the window. Carry on,

Patrick

 

[Camp Cook]

Well for me I'm not doing any shooting/loading this week because I am trying to decide if I'm going fishing again this afternoon.

Want to try a bit of roe on my spin & glow...

Need to BBQ fresh salmon...

Mmmmm...