The number of shots should be determined by the precision of the gun, the load being used and the distance. Generally, for a specific gun, load and distance; I fire enough shots so that the group size repeatable within around 20% and I consider that the accuracy of that combination. The key word is "repeatability". If it isn't repeatable, it isn't so. I've had plenty of 0.1" and 0.2" 3 shot groups from various guns. But they aren't repeatable... just chance occurrences. Some guys actually cut those out, put them in their wallets and brag about them. That's just funny IMO...
Shot count in group size
- Thread starter nickorette
- Start date
or the day I'm having. 5 for groups.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Damnit, I am ashamed to admit that it never occured to me that that dime or quarter was there for devious purposes!!
Anyhow, discarding _any_ shots in a group that haven't been called as bad shots before you've seen where they print on the paper (let alone "best 3 out of 5"), is seriously dishonest, to the point of rendering the whole exercise useless and meaningless. Perhaps that's why my rifle, which I'll represent as being capable of firing better than 5/8" 5-shot groups at 100 yards but only rarely ever better than 1/2", seems to usually be able to outshoot other rifles that supposedly are capable of 3/8" groups
Another way of looking at things is to consider what exactly a group (of any number of shots) is capable of telling you, and also what it is _not_ capable of telling you. It might be helpful to think of a group as telling you a form of "negative information".
When you are looking for a good load, what you probably want is something "accurate enough for the intended purpose". Clearly this definition will reasonably differ from a factory hunting rifle to a custom competition rifle, but in each case you have an idea of what is appropriate to expect and to try to accomplish, and what sort of performance indicates "keep on looking, you're not there yet..."
What I mean by "negative information" is that a large group, even with only a few shots fired, tells you with 100% certainty that something is wrong. You don't need to fire any more shots to know this nor to confirm this (a very fine shooter once told me, "nobody ever made a group smaller by shooting at it"!). As soon as you shoot a big group, you can stop shooting; you now know that there is something wrong with what you were doing and you now need to try something else.
Whereas a small group doesn't tell you that your load is a good one. All it tell you is that so far, nothing has messed up. The more shots you have in a small group, and/or the more small groups you have fired without firing a single large group, the less uncomfortable you have to be that there might be problems with your load. But you never "know" your load is good, and you never can.
So as long as your groups are "too large", you don't need to fire many shots in your groups at all.
As soon as your groups get to be "small enough", you then have to fire more shots in your group, and more groups, until you develop enough confidence that your load is good enough for the intended purpose.
Daniel:
You mean you can actully beat Savage gun owners, most of whom shoot 1/4 MOA? How can this be?
Regards,
Peter
PS, 5 shot groups are standard, except as noted by posts. Factories use series of 10 shot groups in their test barrels before posting accuracy capabilities, which accounts for seemingly mediocre perormance. They, as well as Dan, are honest. Most of the 1/4" crowd are full of it - makes me puke!
You mean you can actully beat Savage gun owners, most of whom shoot 1/4 MOA? How can this be?
Regards,
Peter
PS, 5 shot groups are standard, except as noted by posts. Factories use series of 10 shot groups in their test barrels before posting accuracy capabilities, which accounts for seemingly mediocre perormance. They, as well as Dan, are honest. Most of the 1/4" crowd are full of it - makes me puke!
I have occassion to shoot groups testing a large number of differnt lots of 308 ammo. Testing was done in my backtard range at 200 yards off a bench. I used a heavy barrel target rifle and a 36X scope.
I could clearly and easily watch the groups form. Sometimes the first 3 were a bug hole. Sometimes the first 5 were a nice cloverleaf of touching bullets. These pretty groups opened up for the second 5 shots.
The results indicated that a few lots were good and the rest ranged from mediocre to poor. But the results based on 3 and 5 shot groups would have been menaingless.
The posts above have covered all the relevant points very well.
There are rifles for which a 3 shot group is all that can be shot because the barrel heat would shift the group. Think of a mountian rifle or a rifle with a barrel band, like a M94.
Groups don't get smaller the more you shoot. If the first 3 shots are 2" and you are looking for a half inch group, that load is not working. During load development, I shoot 5 shot groups so I can find the area that I want to explore in detail. But I don't kid myself that a bug hole group in thats eries measn that I have found anything important. It could be a group in which the 2 flyers went into the group instead of out of the group.
I could clearly and easily watch the groups form. Sometimes the first 3 were a bug hole. Sometimes the first 5 were a nice cloverleaf of touching bullets. These pretty groups opened up for the second 5 shots.
The results indicated that a few lots were good and the rest ranged from mediocre to poor. But the results based on 3 and 5 shot groups would have been menaingless.
The posts above have covered all the relevant points very well.
There are rifles for which a 3 shot group is all that can be shot because the barrel heat would shift the group. Think of a mountian rifle or a rifle with a barrel band, like a M94.
Groups don't get smaller the more you shoot. If the first 3 shots are 2" and you are looking for a half inch group, that load is not working. During load development, I shoot 5 shot groups so I can find the area that I want to explore in detail. But I don't kid myself that a bug hole group in thats eries measn that I have found anything important. It could be a group in which the 2 flyers went into the group instead of out of the group.
- Location
- Port Perry/Toronto
with my "precision" rifle * yes it is built off of a stevens 200. i do 5 shot groups at 100 yrds, shot 5 waiting 3 seconds between shots, have a smoke, shoot another 5 etc.
i dnt reload and the only decent ammo for .300wm i can get locally is federal blue box from the local can tire. all thigns considering my 5 shot groups fit under a loonie on any givien day and i have bad shakes, shot off a cheap bipod and no rear rest. laying in whatever the ground happens to be that day*mud,snow,dry,wet etc*
i dnt reload and the only decent ammo for .300wm i can get locally is federal blue box from the local can tire. all thigns considering my 5 shot groups fit under a loonie on any givien day and i have bad shakes, shot off a cheap bipod and no rear rest. laying in whatever the ground happens to be that day*mud,snow,dry,wet etc*
That reminds me of Bob Milek. I do miss his writing, and also miss the entertainment of him "pointing" to a particular group on a test target. I was always sure he was covering the errant bullet hole with his finger!
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