- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
and as long as we're both getting our animals. humanely...who gives a ####
Shot placement, bullets, rifles...
- Thread starter sealhunter
- Start date
and as long as we're both getting our animals. humanely...who gives a ####
HAhahaha... we'd be fun in a pub... for eachother.... evryone else... not so much....LMAO
There is no empirical evidence to support the theory that a 375 H&H kills a moose any quicker than does a 7x57, if the bullet is properly placed and it acts properly [read expands reliably] once it hits that proper spot.
I have shot a lot of deer with the 6mm Remington, mostly with 95 & 100 grain Partitions.
I have also shot a number of deer with the 30-06, and a few with the 30 cal magnums, mostly with 165 and 180 grain Partitions. Lots with 6.5's, 270's, and a variety of others]
I could not say that any properly shot deer died any quicker with the big 30's, than they did with the lesser bullet diameters, sometimes developing much less energy.
I have also shot Moose with a great variety of chamberings, starting at 6mm and going right up to the 338 Win Mag.
While I do not recommend the 6mm as a Moose chambering, it will kill moose, and quickly.
This all takes takes us back to:
1. Bullet Placement.
2. Bullet performance once it hits.
Energy needed to kill an animal is way down the list, IMHO.
Animals do not read energy charts.
Regards, Eagleye
I have shot a lot of deer with the 6mm Remington, mostly with 95 & 100 grain Partitions.
I have also shot a number of deer with the 30-06, and a few with the 30 cal magnums, mostly with 165 and 180 grain Partitions. Lots with 6.5's, 270's, and a variety of others]
I could not say that any properly shot deer died any quicker with the big 30's, than they did with the lesser bullet diameters, sometimes developing much less energy.
I have also shot Moose with a great variety of chamberings, starting at 6mm and going right up to the 338 Win Mag.
While I do not recommend the 6mm as a Moose chambering, it will kill moose, and quickly.
This all takes takes us back to:
1. Bullet Placement.
2. Bullet performance once it hits.
Energy needed to kill an animal is way down the list, IMHO.
Animals do not read energy charts.
Regards, Eagleye
I have only used a "premium" bullet one year. Long range 600 yd shot. On deer. Used a 165gn partition in my .30-06.
I have never used them otherwise. Yet always seem to fill the tags. I have lost game but not in the past 10 years. I have learned the lessons taught in a tough school by missing and losing animals.
Two years ago my wife shot a nice buck with her .243 using 100gn Federal Powershoks at 140yds. Blew a hole in him that was huge. I have never had an easier blood trail to follow. He didn't go 20yds.
Shot placement.
I have never used them otherwise. Yet always seem to fill the tags. I have lost game but not in the past 10 years. I have learned the lessons taught in a tough school by missing and losing animals.
Two years ago my wife shot a nice buck with her .243 using 100gn Federal Powershoks at 140yds. Blew a hole in him that was huge. I have never had an easier blood trail to follow. He didn't go 20yds.
Shot placement.
My opinion is no, the bullet obviously doesn't need to go 3 miles out the other side but unless your one shot hunting the great american plains a blood trail from the exit wound make much easier tracking in thick bush, even if it is only for 50-150yds, especially deer that don't have a tendancy to nessesarily run straight away.
So... without turning this into a muck as that is not my intention, which of these bullets do you think is better suited for creating an dexit hole and good blood trail in thick cover?.....
- Location
- Silver Creek
Shot placement is the most critical ingredient in the whole thing. The bullet cant do its job if you dont put it where it needs to be. You cant make up for your poor marksmanship with a bigger faster shinier gun.
More moose and deer have been harvested with Plain old standard ammo and guns like 270, 3030, 308, 3006 than all the rest.
Regardless of whether you use a slingshot or a cannon, put the shot where it has to be and you will bring it home. Miss and you will not
LSB
More moose and deer have been harvested with Plain old standard ammo and guns like 270, 3030, 308, 3006 than all the rest.
Regardless of whether you use a slingshot or a cannon, put the shot where it has to be and you will bring it home. Miss and you will not
LSB
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So... without turning this into a muck as that is not my intention, which of these bullets do you think is better suited for creating an dexit hole and good blood trail in thick cover?.....
You obviously feel that the 30-30 is inadequate for hunting anything, so it's a moot point to make a choice here.
However, there is no guarantee that the faster round will exit, nor is there a guarantee that the 30-30 bullet will not.
A controlled expanding bullet [Think Nosler Partition, A-frames, TTSX. GMX, etc] is more likely to exit, simply because enough of the weight is retained to penetrate better.
Still no guarantee, since hunters recover these from game as well.
I have recovered about 20% of the Partitions I have shot into game, even when shot from potent chamberings.
Another surprise is that a deer will sometimes stop a bullet that one would expect to pass through. [I recovered a 140, 6.5mm Partition from a small buck, shot broadside at 90 yards.]
The same bullet exited on a similar shot on a 2-point bull moose..go figure!!
FWIW, I agree that it is advantageous for a bullet to exit for tracking purposes, but I have yet to lose an animal that the bullet stayed inside of.
Regards, Eagleye.
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
To build upon what Eagleye said, I've yet to loose an animal that was hit anywhere in the boiler room, regardless of where the bullet ended up stopping.
I'm not sure to which wiseman this saying should be attributed to, but its been said many times here before and it goes something like this, "Tell me again, at which point in the death of that animal did your bullet fail you?"
You obviously feel that the 30-30 is inadequate for hunting anything, so it's a moot point to make a choice here.
However, there is no guarantee that the faster round will exit, nor is there a guarantee that the 30-30 bullet will not.
A controlled expanding bullet [Think Nosler Partition, A-frames, TTSX. GMX, etc] is more likely to exit, simply because enough of the weight is retained to penetrate better.
Still no guarantee, since hunters recover these from game as well.
I have recovered about 20% of the Partitions I have shot into game, even when shot from potent chamberings.
Another surprise is that a deer will sometimes stop a bullet that one would expect to pass through. [I recovered a 140, 6.5mm Partition from a small buck, shot broadside at 90 yards.]
The same bullet exited on a similar shot on a 2-point bull moose..go figure!!
FWIW, I agree that it is advantageous for a bullet to exit for tracking purposes, but I have yet to lose an animal that the bullet stayed inside of.
Regards, Eagleye.
Just to make it clear... I don't think 30-30 is inadequate in any way.... I just don't think it is one of the better choices out there..... If you have a 30-30 and you are proficient with it then fill your boots...
Senior thinks otherwise... and is entitled to his opinion... yet he says a good bullet for deer should be able to create a good exit wound and blood trail.... (something I agree with)... I am just wondering, if that is his criteria, why he would tout a 30-30......
Where do you see the place for a premium bullet like the Barnes triple shot x? Maybe I'm a holdout, but for myself, hunting deer with a 30 cal rifle (308, 30-06, 300 mag), I'm getting results that don't suggest a superior bullet would improve them. So far I'm just using standard jacketed bullets, and bonded bullets in the mags.
I have taken a few deer with a 30-30, and 20+ with a 30 Rem(same as 30-30)...Only a couple bullets recovered that I can recall...I have recovered more bullets from 30-06, and 308....Using SP/PSP lead core bullets. This exit wound theory is bunk IMO...
You can also load Partitions, and Barnes X for the 30-30 if you so choose, but for deer sized game, it is not needed.
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ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
I recall a time back in the last millennium, after I had my first few deer under my belt (killed with plain ol’ Remington Core Lokts by the way), when I decided that it was time to upgrade my deer cartridge choice. So I went to my local gun store to check out the various offerings of premium cartridges. I had gotten to know the gunsmith who owned the shop pretty well and perhaps that’s why he took pity upon me and gave me some advice. He said, “I can sell you a $20 box of ammo or I can sell you a $60 box of ammo. I’ve also done well enough in this business so that I can easily afford to shoot any brand of ammo I want. But I use the $20 ammo because it kills deer just as well.”
Marketing bullets to hunters is a lot like marketing tooth paste. Its all about making an otherwise unremarkable product appear to stand out in a field of almost identical products. If Company X’s bullet offers controlled expansion, then Company Y will make a bullet that offers 2-stage controlled expansion
. For deer I think its hard to top the performance of the similar bullets found in green box Remingtons, grey box Winchesters and blue box Federals. There are, however, better bullets out there if you want to shoot grizzly bears.
IMO, the best factory cartridge for deer is the one that meets the following 3 tests:
1) You find the cartridge’s accuracy out of your gun to be acceptable to YOU. Don’t worry about what some keyboard bench-rest shooter thinks of your groups.
2) You can afford to shoot that brand of cartridge. If you pick a cartridge that costs you $3 a shot, chances are that you won’t do much target practice.
3) You can get your hands on a few boxes of your brand of ammo when you need it. A cartridge is not much good to you if the nearest place that carries it is Mega Pro Shop, 200 kms away.
I think we agonize too much over the “best” deer ammo. The truth is that white tailed deer are not all that hard to kill. Hard to hunt, yes, but not hard to bring down with a bullet. Just stick with hunting ammo and not that Czechoslovakian full metal jacket stuff that “Buddy” at the range says he can get you for cheap.
There’s an Old World hunter’s saying that goes (loosely translated), “If you hit (in the vitals), you’ll kill it.” It ain’t the brand of ammo in the pipe that causes deer to be missed, wounded or lost; its ALWAYS caused by the “loose nut behind the stock”
The place I see for premium bullets is this. A good friend of mine and one of the best hunters I know shoots only premium ammo, despite being a generally frugal guy. He says he does so because he uses the same rifle & cartridge for deer and moose (he hunts moose in Ontario and in the Yukon). I can’t argue too much with that because his experience with killing moose is light-years greater than mine.
I can't say I have taken as many as you with both rounds... 5 or 6 with the 30-30 and 15 or 16 with the .30-06.... I don't use fancy cartridges... just rem core lokt.... I would say I have recovered less than 5.30-06 bullets and all that I can recall were because the deer was quartering away and they hit the front shoulder opposite entry side....
I guess one of the things we all have is opinions.
Some are based on solid experience.
Some are based on limited experience.
Some are based on conjecture.
I like to think that opinions I have expressed are based on solid experience.
However, like any of us, I can be biased at times.
I have been blessed to hunt some of the best game country in North America.
I started as a youth, and am now a senior citizen.
In that time, I have shot close to 250 big game animals.
Enough to gather some evidence as to what works well, and what does not.
If, when I open an animal, I find that the bullet has disintegrated, or the core has left the jacket, that bullet will be put on the "practice only" list.
I agree that conventional bullets usually kill deer well. but what if one gets that once in a lifetime opportunity on a real "keeper" and the angle of the shot demands breaking heavier bone to get into the vitals.
Are you certain that cup&core bullet is going to make it in?
If we are talking Grizzly, Elk or Moose, then the problem is magnified considerably.
I reload, and have since 1964. That gives me the option of using a premium bullet in everything I shoot.
I do so by choice, and have yet to be disappointed.
I feel that the extra cost is a small price to pay for the confidence gained.
With the exception of a FMJ, I do not believe there is an expanding bullet made that can guarantee exit every time.
Regards, Eagleye.
Some are based on solid experience.
Some are based on limited experience.
Some are based on conjecture.
I like to think that opinions I have expressed are based on solid experience.
However, like any of us, I can be biased at times.
I have been blessed to hunt some of the best game country in North America.
I started as a youth, and am now a senior citizen.
In that time, I have shot close to 250 big game animals.
Enough to gather some evidence as to what works well, and what does not.
If, when I open an animal, I find that the bullet has disintegrated, or the core has left the jacket, that bullet will be put on the "practice only" list.
I agree that conventional bullets usually kill deer well. but what if one gets that once in a lifetime opportunity on a real "keeper" and the angle of the shot demands breaking heavier bone to get into the vitals.
Are you certain that cup&core bullet is going to make it in?
If we are talking Grizzly, Elk or Moose, then the problem is magnified considerably.
I reload, and have since 1964. That gives me the option of using a premium bullet in everything I shoot.
I do so by choice, and have yet to be disappointed.
I feel that the extra cost is a small price to pay for the confidence gained.
With the exception of a FMJ, I do not believe there is an expanding bullet made that can guarantee exit every time.
Regards, Eagleye.
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Translation: "You want the antlers so bad that you're willing to try and shoot the deer through the ham or the arse."
Translation: "You want the antlers so bad that you're willing to try and shoot the deer through the ham or the arse."
DON'T put words in my mouth!!
I do not shoot unwounded animals in the arse!
But on a heavy quartering towards shot, I will take it every time.
That is what I was talking about.
Who made you my interpreter?
Eagleye.
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Kind Sir,
Your commendable accomplishments (250 big game animals!), your post count (you are retired, no?) and lastly your avatar photo all speak to you being older than I, and undoubtedly more experienced and wiser in many ways.
Although my number of grey hairs seems to be increasing with each passing day, I can only purport to know a thing or two about hunting and killing white tailed deer, which I’ve been doing for 25 years with bullet and arrow (and fairly successfully if I do say so myself). This brief period has offered me the good fortune of killing all sorts of deer that were near, far, broad-side, quartering-away, quartering-to, front-on and even straight down. How many other deer shot by others, to which I have been witness since my early childhood, I do not dare to count.
Yet in my comparatively limited experience, I’ve obviously been a dismal failure (as have my all of my colleagues and mentors) at locating that “heavy bone” which would appear to protect the vital area on a white tailed deer from jacketed lead rifle bullets. Deer do have big bones, yes. Archers (and I include myself among them) will attest to armour-like qualities of the low shoulder and frontal areas against arrows. But I dare say that if the hunter’s rifle bullet strikes a bone that is so heavy as to stop the bullet from finishing its job, then the hunter has missed the vitals altogether and is now in the difficult spot of what to do about a deer that has fled on 3 legs.
One’s choice to use a sturdier or premium bullet on a deer is not a bad choice at all, and I regret if I came across as indicating so. For example, such a bullet broadens one’s versatility to hunt bigger game in addition to deer, or it may help in bringing out the very best in micrometer measured accuracy. But it does not make a white tailed deer any deader. Just my observation; solid, limited, conjectured or otherwise.
Your commendable accomplishments (250 big game animals!), your post count (you are retired, no?) and lastly your avatar photo all speak to you being older than I, and undoubtedly more experienced and wiser in many ways.
Although my number of grey hairs seems to be increasing with each passing day, I can only purport to know a thing or two about hunting and killing white tailed deer, which I’ve been doing for 25 years with bullet and arrow (and fairly successfully if I do say so myself). This brief period has offered me the good fortune of killing all sorts of deer that were near, far, broad-side, quartering-away, quartering-to, front-on and even straight down. How many other deer shot by others, to which I have been witness since my early childhood, I do not dare to count.
Yet in my comparatively limited experience, I’ve obviously been a dismal failure (as have my all of my colleagues and mentors) at locating that “heavy bone” which would appear to protect the vital area on a white tailed deer from jacketed lead rifle bullets. Deer do have big bones, yes. Archers (and I include myself among them) will attest to armour-like qualities of the low shoulder and frontal areas against arrows. But I dare say that if the hunter’s rifle bullet strikes a bone that is so heavy as to stop the bullet from finishing its job, then the hunter has missed the vitals altogether and is now in the difficult spot of what to do about a deer that has fled on 3 legs.
One’s choice to use a sturdier or premium bullet on a deer is not a bad choice at all, and I regret if I came across as indicating so. For example, such a bullet broadens one’s versatility to hunt bigger game in addition to deer, or it may help in bringing out the very best in micrometer measured accuracy. But it does not make a white tailed deer any deader. Just my observation; solid, limited, conjectured or otherwise.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Can you please explain how the minimum threshold of energy affects the bullet's performance?
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
That's more like it.
The right bullet construction and sufficient velocity are critical, assuming proper bullet placement. Velocity is what enables the bullet to expand. If the bullet expands properly, then it is going to destroy whatever it passes through. If the bullet has sufficient momentum (notice I did not say energy here) it will penetrate through whatever resistance it encounters before arriving at the vital target (whether CNS or heart/lung/liver). Energy, while necessary (velocity is a part of kinetic energy!), does not correlate directly to bullet performance or killing power in any discernible way.
