Shotgun barrel length legal question

regulate34

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I am trying to find a answer to my question
Maybe someone has a link to a place that I can’t find this.

If I put a 12.5” barrel on a 12g pump shotgun. And the overall length is definitely over 26” (33”)

Is this gun still non-restricted?

Or would it be a restricted firearm because it didn’t come from the factory that way?
Even with a manufacturerd 12.5” barrel?

Thanks guys
 
As far as I know if the 12.5 inch barrel was legally manufactured that length you would be non restricted if the overall length is over 26 inches.
 
After reading this I’m
Still not too sure.

https://nfa.ca/2005/02/25/barrel-and-firearms-lengths/

So if a REM 870 came from the factory with a 28” barrel.
Dose that change anything?

NOTE: The firearm is NOT forced into the “prohibited firearm” class if it left the factory with the barrel at below-18″/457mm barrel length. I have, for example, a .22 rimfire semi-auto 30-shot rifle with a 9-3/4″ barrel, a .410 single-shot shotgun with an 11-3/4″ barrel, two 12-gauge pump-action shotguns with 14″ barrels, a .22 rimfire pump-action rifle with a 17-7/8″ custom barrel and a .223 calibre rifle with a 14″ barrel — AND ALL OF THEM ARE NON-RESTRICTED. THAT IS BECAUSE THEY EITHER LEFT THE FACTORY WITH THOSE BARRELS, OR WERE FITTED WITH FACTORY- OR CUSTOM-MADE BARRELS IN THOSE LENGTHS AT SOME LATER DATE, and were NEVER fitted with a longer barrel. One left the factory with NO barrel, and so a 14″ barrel could be legally fitted.
 
Has been discussed on this site previously. In my case was centre fire rifle. Bought a NOS Swede M94 barrel from site sponsor. It is less than 18" long, as made. I was concerned that installing it on a receiver would create a restricted rifle. Consensus is not so - was a "factory made" barrel on a "factory made" receiver. So, how to measure? For example, I have a 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine - the actual muzzle of the barrel is way back inside the front sight assembly - the round part sticking out in front of the front sight is a bayonet mount, not the barrel. And, then, I recently bought a Ruger Compact rifle with its 16 1/2" barrel, apparently non-restricted because it is all made-in-factory.

I am reasonably confident all the above are non-restricted. Slogging through bush and coming out to be met by an enforcement official, I have no illusions that he/she will have the knowledge or apparatus to accurately measure those barrels. So, I will end up in a kerfuffle with those regulators - easy enough for them to exercise their "authority" and seize all "for investigation" - quite sure in the end that I will be correct - will be in compliance with the goofiness of the regs that they are trying to enforce. Being "on side" of the regs is one thing. Being subject to "punishment by process" is also a thing. The best that I can come up with, for myself, is to just not draw attention to myself, when out and about with those toys. A bit sad, really - I am old enough to remember walking out of town to go shoot gophers in pasture, carrying my Dad's Cooey 60 down the street. Not sure, at all, that I would do so today, although I apparently can still do so legally. And, not so much concerned about the laws and police, except AFTER a modern "concerned citizen" calls 911....

I suppose a bit like crossing a street at a cross walk - you are in the "right" to be there - just that you will be very dead if a semi decides to run that light - he might even face charges, afterwards, but you are still very much dead - and, in the "right", but still dead.
 
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Relevant law:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#h-117002

restricted firearm means

(a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm,

(b) a firearm that

(i) is not a prohibited firearm,

(ii) has a barrel less than 470 mm in length, and

(iii) is capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner,

(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or

(d) a firearm of any other kind that is prescribed to be a restricted firearm; (arme à feu à autorisation restreinte)

Note the "and" in section b(ii)...has to be less than 470mm AND semi-auto.
 
Overall length does apply to a pump shot gun.

There is no overall length requirement for a Non Restricted Firearm.

A pump shotgun MAY be restricted if it has a telescoping or otherwise stock that allows its OAL to be reduced to less than 660mm.

A pump Shotgun MAY be Prohibited if it has been adapted from a firearm via sawing, cutting or any other alteration such that its barrel length is less than 457mm.

A pump shotgun MAY be prohibited if it is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm by regulations, because it is a named variant, a variant of a variant, an unnamed variant, a variant of an unnamed variant, has a bore diameter 20mm or larger (which is most 12 ga shotguns) or is capable of firing a shot in excess of 10,000 Joules, (which is most 12 ga shotguns).

The OP is asking whether the gun is NR, or perhaps Restricted. Based on the current state of our gun laws its much more likely that the gun is prohibited. But only a judge can tell you that for sure. The rest is just is speculation.
 
It’s non restricted, you’re putting a manufactured barrel on and keeping well above the overall legal length.

That is not at all the relevant factor that determines the classification of the firearm.

No judge has agreed with the RCMP that switching a 26" factory barrel for a 12" factory barrel is any different than taking a hack a hacksaw to a 26" barrel and making a 12" barrel. The net result is a same, and at your trial that is likely all the judge will care about. "ANY OTHER ALTERATION" is incredibly broad. A judge is likely to interpret it that way.
 
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It's a pump shotgun... what does overall length have to do with it?

Every firearm falls into one of three mutually exclusive classifications. NR, Res, and Prohibited.

Nothing about being a pump shotgun dictates the class of the firearm.

Two out of three of those classifications contain provisions relating to OAL.

To Properly classify any firearm, including a pump shotgun, you apply the rules for prohibited. If it meets them, its prohibited.
If it does not, you apply the rules for restricted. If it meets them, its restricted.
If not, it is NR by default.

There are pump shotguns in every class.
There are rifles in every class.
There are handguns in every class.
There are revolvers in every class.
There are lever actions in every class.
 
There is no overall length requirement for a Non Restricted Firearm.

A pump shotgun MAY be restricted if it has a telescoping or otherwise stock that allows its OAL to be reduced to less than 660mm.

A pump Shotgun MAY be Prohibited if it has been adapted from a firearm via sawing, cutting or any other alteration such that its barrel length is less than 457mm.

A pump shotgun MAY be prohibited if it is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm by regulations, because it is a named variant, a variant of a variant, an unnamed variant, a variant of an unnamed variant, has a bore diameter 20mm or larger (which is most 12 ga shotguns) or is capable of firing a shot in excess of 10,000 Joules, (which is most 12 ga shotguns).

The OP is asking whether the gun is NR, or perhaps Restricted. Based on the current state of our gun laws its much more likely that the gun is prohibited. But only a judge can tell you that for sure. The rest is just is speculation.

Seems like this discussion goes in big circles - covering threads from at least a couple years ago. Your bolded section "any other alteration" - to your knowledge has there ever been a Canadian judge who had to interpret what that means?? The preceding words - "sawing, cutting" seem clear enough, but does "replacing" a barrel equal "any other alteration", and has any judge ruled on that one way or the other?

I suppose the issue becomes "alteration" to the firearm, versus "alteration" to that barrel? But, as mentioned, we need to know if a Judge or Judges have said that or not...
 
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"restricted firearm means"

"(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or"

I believe that our governments interpretation of this sentence also includes any firearm that is manufactured with an overall length of less than 660 mm .... fixed stock, full stock, no stock, folding stock, pistol grip, ... doesn't matter.

Or are there any guns (shotguns or otherwise) on the market in Canada that have an overall length of less than 660 mm and that are sold as non-restricted?

p.s.: And this would also include firearms assembled ("otherwise") from manufactured parts and with an overall length of less than 660 mm.
 
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Seems like this discussion goes in big circles - covering threads from at least a couple years ago. Your bolded section "any other alteration" - to your knowledge has there ever been a Canadian judge who had to interpret what that means?? The preceding words - "sawing, cutting" seem clear enough, but does "replacing" a barrel equal "any other alteration", and has any judge ruled on that one way or the other?

I suppose the issue becomes "alteration" to the firearm, versus "alteration" to that barrel? But, as mentioned, we need to know if a Judge or Judges have said that or not...

I have looked extensively and I can not locate a single judicial ruling that addresses "any other alteration". I have read hundreds of judicial reasons and I can say that the answer will depend largely on the judge, what they had for breakfast, and whether or not they have handled a complex firearms case before. And even then its a crap shoot.

I feel comfortable making a good speculation as to how a judge will attempt to answer the question, and the reasonable outcome of that process, but thats admittedly just my guess.

I'll spare you the long version, here's the short version.

Judge, what does this law mean?
Q.1. What was parliament trying to do when it made this law?
A. Prohibit the possession of firearms which have been modified by people to make them shorter, and thus more concealable.

Q.2. What did parliament actually prohibit (ie was exactly does the law say.
A. Edited for brevity...
Prohibited Firearm means a FIREARM that is adapted from a rifle or SHOTGUN, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and as adapted is less than 660mm OR has a barrel less than 457mm.

Q3. Does removing and replacing the barrel fall within the meaning of "any other alteration".
So to decide what any other alteration means, first, its adaptation of a FIREARM by XYZ. The law does not specify whether the adaptation is of the barrel only or if it includes any adaptation to the firearm as a whole, but a plain reading of the words and ordinary sentence structure suggests altering the barrel or the firearm as a whole would count.

Is changing the barrel an 'alteration'? Alteration is not defined in statute so we go to the dictionary. Take your pick.
Miriam Webster
1: the act or process of altering something
: the state of being altered
2: the result of changing or altering something: such as
a: a change made in fitting a garment
b : a change in a legal instrument that alters its legal effect

To Alter:
1. To make different without changing it into something else.

A. You could pick that apart for days and contrive all kinds of different applications, but its reasonable to conclude that switching the barrels is an alteration.

Q4. Does the alteration result in the firearm being shorter than 660mm or the barrel being 473mm.
A. Obviously yes.

Q5. Bonus question. Does this interpretation reasonable fall within what parliament intended to prohibit? Parliament intended to prohibit shortening firearms which makes them more concealable.
A. Any judge could go either way here, but its at least reasonable to assume some judges would readily agree that this fits. ANY OTHER MODIFICATION was included by parliament to capture ANY method of shortening a firearm that has the same result as cutting or sawing.

In summary, no judge that I am aware of has ruled on this. Your guess is as good as mine. Its reasonable to conclude that at least some judges would decide that swapping factory barrels is no different than sawing or cutting, when reading the definition of prohibited firearm.

The RCMP don't seem to really care, and as we have seen they typically ignore legal inconveniences when it suits them, but are also prone to changing their mind without warning.

Bringing it back to the OPs question, unless the firearm has a telescoping stock, there is no concern that a pump shotgun with a short barrel would be restricted. The question is whether it is NR or Prohibited.
 
"restricted firearm means"

"(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or"

I believe that our governments interpretation of this sentence also includes any firearm that is manufactured with an overall length of less than 660 mm .... fixed stock, full stock, no stock, folding stock, pistol grip, ... doesn't matter.

Or are there any guns (shotguns or otherwise) on the market in Canada that have an overall length of less than 660 mm and that are sold as non-restricted?

p.s.: And this would also include firearms assembled ("otherwise") from manufactured parts and with an overall length of less than 660 mm.

Lots.

I have seen single shot .22lrs made for children that are below that limit. Most 'Mares Legs' are below that limit.

And there are some brands of pump shotguns sold with short barrels and 'raptor grip' stocks that are below that limit.

The mares leg is an interesting one because in the US it is explicitly marketed as a handgun in order to avoid the US Short Barreled Rifle definition, but some how in Canada its a rifle. Its also interesting, in that the RCMP have assessed it as NOT BEING A HANDGUN, because its a lever action, and therefore needs two hands to operate. But the 12" barrelled Mares Legs are rifles yet the 9" barrelled Mares legs, with identical action and operation, is somehow a handgun.

As much as I want to engage in this "classify my gun" threads, its much more important that 2.2 million gun owners understand that our classification rules are utterly ridiculous, and there is no rationale whatsoever for treating firearms any differently based on their functions or features. In the right hands, no gun is any more or less a danger to public safety than any other. In the wrong hands, all guns are dangerous. A gun is a gun is a gun. Don't overthink it.
 
Funny thing with our dumb laws.... if you added(modified) a 1/4" piece of leather to the metal butt plate of your ranchhand and the new length was under the legal limit you would have lengthened the gun and made it prohibited in the process.

Simplification of our gun laws should be a priority! The fact that most gun owners and even more police can't make sense of the rules suggests there is a need for a re-write. Question is who does the re-write? Actual Firearms experts looking at facts and evidence..... or someone with a clear bias and agenda?
 
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