Shotgun choke question.

[guntech]

It's really rather simple...

A typical 12 gauge shotgun barrel back 100 years ago had a bore of about .729 inches from in front of the forcing cone (which was immediately in front of the chamber). This bore continued towards the muzzle where if there was any constriction, it was called the choke. If there was no restriction, it was a cylinder bored barrel.

The amount of constriction from bore diameter to choke diameter determines what the choke is named.

Choke designation from the tightest to the most open are: Extra Full, Full, Improved Modified, Modified, Skeet II, Improved Cylinder, Skeet I, and Cylinder Bore.

There is no choke designation as 'open'. Open choke simply refers to a choke that is not particularly tight as comparing it to a full choke... In the days of old the majority of guns were full choke...

 

[CZ Shooter]

Open choke is far less confusing than using "bullet" when you mean " cartridge" , you can't fire a bullet, without a propellant, but you can use a shotgun, even with a choke that isn't ideal. And "open choke" isn't contradictory, the word "choke" is a noun when used in reference to a shotgun, while the word "open" is just a rough description of the choke.

I never had a problem understanding someone, when they made a wrong refference to "clip" or a "bullet".

This could very well be some kind of a language barrier, as english is not my first language..

However....my understanding of the word open in this context means "unrestricted".
My understanding of the word "choke" is something that is restrictive, impedes flow, partially obstructs...etc.

Again...if one doesn't know, how is one supposed to know?
This is not something intuitive like the examples used above...this is highly counter-intuitive by it's nature.
The uninitiated have nothing to go on here and therefore have no choice but to take it literally.

 

[CZ Shooter]

“Open choke” only *seems* contradictory as a superficial consequence of language — like the terms “jumbo shrimp”, “virtual reality”, or “random order”......



.

Those are all household terms that get used all the time, so their meaning becomes well known.

It wasn't till couple days ago, when I heard the term "open choke" being used for the first time...but then again I'm not really a shotgun guy (as I stated in my very first post).

Being that a very large segment of population is not familiar with firearms (and even less with a specific class of firearms such as shotguns), it stands to reason that most people had never heard of this word combination either.

I'm hoping that you can see this?

 

[Ashcroft]

CZ Shooter, I agree, it's certainly confusing and you can see by the varied responses how many people have different ways to explain the same thing. I also agree with those who say 'don't overcomplicate an imprecise subject'. There is evidence that even as far back as the early 1800's a very few barrel makers could bore a barrel so that it would shoot 'harder' and their barrels were highly sought after. They were very secretive about their methods but close examination today on surviving specimens has revealed that various forms of choke were being used by some but they didn't pass this information on although by the 1860's the secret was slipping out and more and more makers were starting to use it. Sylvester Roper in US and William Rochester Pape in UK finally both filed patents for choke bored barrels in 1866 and then the cat was truly out of the bag. WW Greener of Birmingham went all out on choked barrels, entered his guns in competitions and trials against other makers ( and winning) and trumped everybody when in the early 1870's he offered his guns with guaranteed patterns about equivalent to modern Modified choke. At this time he had one of the largest gun manufacturing plants in Britain and as the only one producing his own barrels he had complete control of his barrel manufacturing.
We really haven't progressed very much since then, we now have generally accepted names for various chokes and these are each generally assigned a range of constriction which varies by gauge but we still can't accurately predict actual pellet count to assign a specific choke name for all guns with all ammunition in all conditions. Pellet counts ( usually compared as percentages) can be manipulated by changing choke of course, velocity, shot charge weight, shot material, velocity, case type, wad type, powder type, even a change of primer can cause a change in pattern and these can be enough to make a tight choke shoot open or an open choke shoot tight.
The subject of choke keeps coming up here every year or two, it keeps getting explained but we are acquiring new shooters at a surprising rate and they come up against confusion on this subject, even many shooters with decades of experience often don't dig deeply into the "mystery" of the choked barrel. Hopefully these posts have once again helped some of our shooters to understand the basics of choke to a point and refresh the subject for others. J

 

[Pinfire]

Thank you, Ashcroft, for a clear summary.

 

[stubblejumper]

I never had a problem understanding someone, when they made a wrong refference to "clip" or a "bullet".

This could very well be some kind of a language barrier, as english is not my first language..

However....my understanding of the word open in this context means "unrestricted".
My understanding of the word "choke" is something that is restrictive, impedes flow, partially obstructs...etc.

Again...if one doesn't know, how is one supposed to know?
This is not something intuitive like the examples used above...this is highly counter-intuitive by it's nature.
The uninitiated have nothing to go on here and therefore have no choice but to take it literally.

So when I go into a store and ask for 7mm bullets, why do some clerks ask me to clarify if I want bullets or loaded ammunition? It's because so many people use the wrong terminology, that the clerks are not sure who is using the correct terminology. When talking modern shotguns, the threaded tube that screws into the end of the muzzle, is the choke. Then we use more words to clarify if there is constriction, and how much. When I go into a store and ask for an invector plus improved cylinder choke , the clerk knows what I am asking for.

 

[guntech]

So when I go into a store and ask for 7mm bullets, why do some clerks ask me to clarify if I want bullets or loaded ammunition? It's because so many people use the wrong terminology, that the clerks are not sure who is using the correct terminology.

So true... and many of those using incorrect terminology just don't realize it... ignorance is bliss.

 

[CZ Shooter]

So when I go into a store and ask for 7mm bullets, why do some clerks ask me to clarify if I want bullets or loaded ammunition? It's because so many people use the wrong terminology, that the clerks are not sure who is using the correct terminology. When talking modern shotguns, the threaded tube that screws into the end of the muzzle, is the choke. Then we use more words to clarify if there is constriction, and how much. When I go into a store and ask for an invector plus improved cylinder choke , the clerk knows what I am asking for.

I'm guessing this is one of those situations where one needs to be specific, as they sell both bullets and loaded cartridges.

When some buddy of yours (or mine) says he loaded 5 bullets into his clip, which he then inserted into his SKS-D...I'm pretty sure we both know what he was talking about, even if he used incorrect terminology.

Again...once you know that there is such thing as "open choke" you will approach it differently, then if you had no idea this terminology existed.

Also..it wasn't just the "open choke" alone that caused my confusion...there is a context behind it.

As someone who owns a couple of cylinder bore shotguns, I was basically wondering what is the difference between mine and the one on youtube, who's owner was shooting it with an "open choke" and why would he need to insert a choke into his shotgun to achieve the same effect as myself without having to insert anything into mine?

This simple and logical inquiry of mine is what triggered this multipage thread, in which everything was explained and I was given some key pieces of information, after which it all started making sense..
But not before then.

Now I know that the reason for his inserting the "open choke" is the fact, that he was looking to protect threads inside his barrel, which mine doesn't seem to have.

Now it all makes sense and now I know what the "open choke" refference means.
By now I'm also hoping, that all of you guys can see where I was coming from and how this came about?

Again, big thanx to everyone involved here.

 

[Falconflyer]

So when I go into a store and ask for 7mm bullets, why do some clerks ask me to clarify if I want bullets or loaded ammunition? It's because so many people use the wrong terminology, that the clerks are not sure who is using the correct terminology. When talking modern shotguns, the threaded tube that screws into the end of the muzzle, is the choke. Then we use more words to clarify if there is constriction, and how much. When I go into a store and ask for an invector plus improved cylinder choke , the clerk knows what I am asking for.

I'd argue that this is the choke tube, choke itself is a function.

 

[stubblejumper]

I'm guessing this is one of those situations where one needs to be specific, as they sell both bullets and loaded cartridges.

When some buddy of yours (or mine) says he loaded 5 bullets into his clip, which he then inserted into his SKS-D...I'm pretty sure we both know what he was talking about, even if he used incorrect terminology.

Again...once you know that there is such thing as "open choke" you will approach it differently, then if you had no idea this terminology existed.

Also..it wasn't just the "open choke" alone that caused my confusion...there is a context behind it.

As someone who owns a couple of cylinder bore shotguns, I was basically wondering what is the difference between mine and the one on youtube, who's owner was shooting it with an "open choke" and why would he need to insert a choke into his shotgun to achieve the same effect as myself without having to insert anything into mine?

This simple and logical inquiry of mine is what triggered this multipage thread, in which everything was explained and I was given some key pieces of information, after which it all started making sense..
But not before then.

Now I know that the reason for his inserting the "open choke" is the fact, that he was looking to protect threads inside his barrel, which mine doesn't seem to have.

Now it all makes sense and now I know what the "open choke" refference means.
By now I'm also hoping, that all of you guys can see where I was coming from and how this came about?

Again, big thanx to everyone involved here.

When I ask for 7mm "bullets" I am being specific, I am asking for projectiles, if I wanted loaded ammunition, I would ask for loaded ammunition. When I go to certain stores where the clerks know me, they don't ask me to clarify, because they know that I am using the correct terminology.

As for the "cylinder" choke tube, yes the effect on pattern is the same with or without the screw in choke tube, but inserting the tube keeps the threads from being damaged or fouled , and having the barrel threaded for choke tubes , gives a person the option to easily change the choke , for different applications. And as I posted earlier, most people that purchase a tactical/defender style shotgun with a fixed choke, don't care , because they don't wingshoot with those shotguns.

 

[CZ Shooter]

When I ask for 7mm "bullets" I am being specific, I am asking for projectiles, if I wanted loaded ammunition, I would ask for loaded ammunition. When I go to certain stores where the clerks know me, they don't ask me to clarify, because they know that I am using the correct terminology.

As for the "cylinder" choke tube, yes the effect on pattern is the same with or without the screw in choke tube, but inserting the tube keeps the threads from being damaged or fouled , and having the barrel threaded for choke tubes , gives a person the option to easily change the choke , for different applications. And as I posted earlier, most people that purchase a tactical/defender style shotgun with a fixed choke, don't care , because they don't wingshoot with those shotguns.

The last sentence very much applies to me.
Bought them 2 shotguns about 20 years ago for one reason only...home defense.

I made sure that they are the cylinder bore kind, as my working distances woud never exceed 50 feet in such scenario.
Not a hunter and I never went skeet shooting.

Moved to a better neighbourhood since then, so they kind of got forgotten in the back of my safe...lol

 

[stubblejumper]

Moved to a better neighbourhood since then, so they kind of got forgotten in the back of my safe...lol

And that is what happens to a lot of those tactical/defender style shotguns, people shoot zombie targets or cans/bottles a few times, then they sit unused.

 

[Butcherbill]

And as I posted earlier, most people that purchase a tactical/defender style shotgun with a fixed choke, don't care , because they don't wingshoot with those shotguns.

We may not wingshoot with them but that doesn’t mean we don’t care about the benefits of having chokes, you need to leave that fudd mentality at the clubhouse door lol.

 

[CZ Shooter]

And that is what happens to a lot of those tactical/defender style shotguns, people shoot zombie targets or cans/bottles a few times, then they sit unused.

I agree....but I have a feeling, that with the current political climate of "defunding the police", while all kinds of violent "social justice" mobs are running wild, this might change soon.

 

[guntech]

Moving to the US soon?

 

[CZ Shooter]

Moving to the US soon?

No, but it's just a matter of time before it moves over to us, as this chaos is planned and guided at the global level.

 

[canuk]

Yes that is indeed it.
As someone who's not familiar with the proper terminology, I have no choice but to take things literally.

The term "open choke" is being thrown around very frequently even by the pros...and the fact that someone talking about having this "open choke" installed, while in the supporting pics (or video) I can clearly see a shiny metal choke inserted in the barrel....it is big time confusing.

The word "open" should deffinitelly not be used in connection with any choking device.

Thanks to all of you guys bringing some clarity into this topic for me.

Lots of constructive points and it seems you have figured this out. Since you have pointed out the language issue I might have one more comment.

It seems you are using the word 'choke' as a verb (to constrict), which is accurate. As there is no construction in an open choke (unless "open" is being used as a relative term then i guess there could be) it seems confusing and contradictory.

What might help is if you consider (as shotgunners seem to) a "choke" as a nouns. e.g. how many chokes came with that gun?, is your choke stuck?, how much did that choke cost? <- very plausible comments that would not work when referring strictly to 'constriction'.

When you are thinking/talking chokes to shotgunners think of them as nouns (things). This might clear up the confusion as "open" becomes the adjective. e.g. open choke, full choke, modified choke, skeet choke. In any case, the "choke" is a thing we can put in our pocket or sell on CGN.

Thanks, I needed an excuse to avoid work for a few minutes.

 

[Ashcroft]

I'd argue that this is the choke tube, choke itself is a function.

Falconflyer, technically you are correct. This is another case where common usage sometimes conflicts with correct definition. Choke tubes are made, advertised by the makers and sold as choke tubes, not as chokes.

 

[CZ Shooter]

Lots of constructive points and it seems you have figured this out. Since you have pointed out the language issue I might have one more comment.

It seems you are using the word 'choke' as a verb (to constrict), which is accurate. As there is no construction in an open choke (unless "open" is being used as a relative term then i guess there could be) it seems confusing and contradictory.

What might help is if you consider (as shotgunners seem to) a "choke" as a nouns. e.g. how many chokes came with that gun?, is your choke stuck?, how much did that choke cost? <- very plausible comments that would not work when referring strictly to 'constriction'.

When you are thinking/talking chokes to shotgunners think of them as nouns (things). This might clear up the confusion as "open" becomes the adjective. e.g. open choke, full choke, modified choke, skeet choke. In any case, the "choke" is a thing we can put in our pocket or sell on CGN.

Thanks, I needed an excuse to avoid work for a few minutes.

Yes sir.
All of this makes perfect sense once initiated into the intricacies of the choke lingo.
But looking in from the outside, things are not as straight forward.
All good now, I consider myself schooled...lol

 

[stubblejumper]

We may not wingshoot with them but that doesn’t mean we don’t care about the benefits of having chokes, you need to leave that fudd mentality at the clubhouse door lol.

Notice that I posted MOST!, not all. I see far more of those shotguns on the centerfire range shooting slugs, than I do on the clays range. And I have even seen two individuals shooting shot at our backboards, through an AR look alike, even though it is against our range rules. Their excuse was that the shotshell boxes were labeled "target" loads, so they assumed that it was okay to use them on paper targets on our plywood backboards.