Hey guys a friend came across these two shotguns don’t really know anything about either. The pump single shot has no visible markings and the double barrel is marked W RICHARDS London laminated steel with a gm stamp and a 131 number. Any help with id/value would be greatly appreciated
Shotgun identification
- Thread starter ohdot
- Start date
I can't offer any information on the odd (but very interesting) pump gun, but I can comment on the W. Richards gun. It has every indication of being a Belgian-made hardware-store gun, though the condition appears to be very good, and the initial quality appears to be a cut above the usual cheap guns one encounters. Many Belgian trade guns carried names like "W. Richards" to gull the unsuspecting buyer into thinking they were buying a quality gun, like a Westley Richards. To complicate things, a very respected gunmaker was using the name W. Richards, out of Liverpool. If you're going to counterfeit a name, you might as well counterfeit British proof marks while you're at it, and it looks like your barrels have what looks to be Birmingham marks, which were commonly faked in Belgium; I would be very surprised if the gun had been made in Britain (though, I suppose, anything is possible). Also, the use of "London" on a barrel without a street address is almost a surefire guarantee the gun never visited that city. In any case, it was a black powder-only gun, built cheaply, and not intended to last several generations. While a competent gunsmith might decide the barrels and action are in good enough condition to use with light black-powder loads, in the meantime it should be considered a wall-hanger. Of its type, it is a good example, and someone will want it. I can't really comment on value, my area of knowledge is for earlier guns.
Thanks for sharing your pictures. I hope someone can identify the pump gun.
Thanks for sharing your pictures. I hope someone can identify the pump gun.
"How hard can it be?" I asked myself, to identify a peculiar pump-action? Especially what looks like a top-loading pump gun, a design I haven't seen outside the early Spencer rattletrap (which I once owned).
So I went online, and came up blank. Then I turned to my library, which is considerable. Nothing. So I went back online, and really tried this time. Still nothing. I did find reference to an odd unmarked European pump gun sold at a Christie's auction in 2002, pictured here:
It's not like the OP's gun at all, other than it is top-loading, unmarked, and I've never seen anything like it -- so no great help.
I'm assuming the OP's gun is real and not some bizarre movie prop, though it does have an odd, home-made, early production look to it, in its awkward lines. And I can't imagine operating that action while shouldering it, with that breechblock moving back to one's eyeball. No wonder the design was not successful.
Followers of the popular YouTube channel Forgotten Weapons can refer to a recent video of theirs on the troublesome complexity of repeating shotgun design, or an older video on why there aren't any top-loading shotguns (beyond the Spencer). These only served to expand the mystery of the OP's gun. Designing a repeating shotgun action is not for the faint of heart.
So, I admit I'm really stumped, after what I thought would be a quick and fun diversion to learn something new, and beat the usual CGN experts to the punch for a change. All to no success. Or am I overthinking this, and is there an easy answer?
Perhaps the OP can help by providing more pictures?
So I went online, and came up blank. Then I turned to my library, which is considerable. Nothing. So I went back online, and really tried this time. Still nothing. I did find reference to an odd unmarked European pump gun sold at a Christie's auction in 2002, pictured here:
It's not like the OP's gun at all, other than it is top-loading, unmarked, and I've never seen anything like it -- so no great help.
I'm assuming the OP's gun is real and not some bizarre movie prop, though it does have an odd, home-made, early production look to it, in its awkward lines. And I can't imagine operating that action while shouldering it, with that breechblock moving back to one's eyeball. No wonder the design was not successful.
Followers of the popular YouTube channel Forgotten Weapons can refer to a recent video of theirs on the troublesome complexity of repeating shotgun design, or an older video on why there aren't any top-loading shotguns (beyond the Spencer). These only served to expand the mystery of the OP's gun. Designing a repeating shotgun action is not for the faint of heart.
So, I admit I'm really stumped, after what I thought would be a quick and fun diversion to learn something new, and beat the usual CGN experts to the punch for a change. All to no success. Or am I overthinking this, and is there an easy answer?
Perhaps the OP can help by providing more pictures?
I’ve shared it over a number of platforms and world wide. If I find anything out I’ll share the info here. That pump is one interesting piece.
I like weird shotguns, and this one is bugging the hell out of me trying to find information on it. There’s nothing on it in my library which is pretty extensive. Wouldn’t mind seeing a few photos of it with the bolt closed.
I like weird shotguns, and this one is bugging the hell out of me trying to find information on it. There’s nothing on it in my library which is pretty extensive. Wouldn’t mind seeing a few photos of it with the bolt closed.
If the Webley name is associated with this gun, I'll be more than surprised. Webley & Son as a business name was used between the 1860s and 1897, when the firm merged with W & C Scott, to form Webley and Scott. The gun is 20th century, not 19th. Also, the Webley clan were quick to patent any new idea, and no such Webley patent exists. And no British firm to my knowledge would produce a wholly unmarked gun, without proofs.
I'm still digging, but without success so far.
I'm still digging, but without success so far.
That's not enough, many countries have crowns in their marks (for instance Belgium, Hungary, Sweden, Spain, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, UK, France, Italy, etc.). As many marks are less than clear to start with due to the stamping process, a clear photo in sharp focus is needed, to at least narrow it down. There may be other marks associated with the crown, and what might look like random letters and numbers nearby. All marks should be photographed, if this mystery is to be solved!
I have seen that pump before, But don't have my old book handy.
I want to say Burgges ? spelling ? But reading later post , looks like ohdot may have something .
I was thinking repeater, or 2 shot
Most W Richards I have seen have been cheap Belgium doubles as Pinfire stated, I have had a couple that where still fairly good condition, most are well used/ loose.
Should be Belgium proof mark on the barrel and frame flat.
Fingernail pictures are hard to tell what you have , If I blow them up the detail washes out.
I presume you don't have them in hand. Why cost for pictures, can't take pictures with a smart camera and just post them?
Good luck.
I want to say Burgges ? spelling ? But reading later post , looks like ohdot may have something .
I was thinking repeater, or 2 shot
Most W Richards I have seen have been cheap Belgium doubles as Pinfire stated, I have had a couple that where still fairly good condition, most are well used/ loose.
Should be Belgium proof mark on the barrel and frame flat.
Fingernail pictures are hard to tell what you have , If I blow them up the detail washes out.
I presume you don't have them in hand. Why cost for pictures, can't take pictures with a smart camera and just post them?
Good luck.
Last edited:
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Upload the full resolution pictures to a free hosting site like Imgur and share the link
