Shotgun reloading HELP

[Ashcroft]

Here’s the problem - I have a good supply of perfect condition British manufactured 10 gauge 2 5/8” paper cased ammunition, loaded in “Gastight” hulls and I want to reload the empties as they accumulate. The hulls are excellent, very solid, very well made, they should make great reloads, especially for black powder loads but I have a primer problem here that I’ve never run into before. The fired primers are VERY tight and hard to remove but worse, they seem to be slightly larger than modern 209 primers. 209 primers just drop into ( and out of) the primer pockets. The base flange of the originals appear to be about .015” larger and the body about .005” larger than fired Federal or Winchester 209 primers. So what to do? I’ve been loading shotshells for 35+ years, I’ve loaded hundreds of thousands of target loads and I have almost 150 different loads in my reloading log but I’m stumped. I know Remington once made a smaller primer (#97?) but I’ve never heard of a larger one. Of course these are British and judging by the phone number on the box they likely have originated long ago, probably before WW2 so maybe this is just a lost cause. Any ideas?

Pictured, left to right - Federal from factory Gold medal, mystery Brit, Winchester from factory AA.

 

[denydart]

Will the primer cup & anvil pop out of the battery cup like old CIL 4B & 4BP? It looks like the flange and battery are wider but inner cup is the same?

 

[Ashcroft]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Here is one that partially popped out when decapping, so yes the cup and anvil could possibly be replaced separately but with what? Paper 10 gauge hulls are the best for black powder loads and they’re hard to find, my Scottish blood hates to waste a resource like this but it may prove to be mission impossible.

 

[ted_dent]

Any chance you could peen the primer pockets so the 209's fit? Someone used to manufacture a primer pocket peener to tighten up expanded primer pockets in fired hulls.
Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCwBUzOOL5w

Apparently they are still available from Ballistic Products.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Universal-Primer-Pocket-Conditioner-10ga-410/productinfo/0740010/

 

[Ashcroft]

That RST Primer Pocket Conditioner looks like just the ticket! Thank you.

 

[stubblejumper]

Fiocchi 209 primers are larger than Federal or CCI, or Winchester, I have several thousand Fiocchi hulls, so I have to use Fiocchi primers in them.

 

[RHS47]

Ashcroft, I don't think that primer pocket conditioner will do what you need done.

It appears to be designed to tighten up a loose primer pocket.

Your problem is the opposite, your primer pockets are too tight.

You need some sort of pin to drive into the pocket to stretch it. Can you or a machinist friend turn a primer sized pin of appropriate diameter, perhaps hardened. Prime your shell & then deprime hopefully stretching the pocket enough. Once may not be enough.

It's the best I can think of this early in the morning.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[Ashcroft]

Ashcroft, I don't think that primer pocket conditioner will do what you need done.

It appears to be designed to tighten up a loose primer pocket.

Your problem is the opposite, your primer pockets are too tight.

You need some sort of pin to drive into the pocket to stretch it. Can you or a machinist friend turn a primer sized pin of appropriate diameter, perhaps hardened. Prime your shell & then deprime hopefully stretching the pocket enough. Once may not be enough.

It's the best I can think of this early in the morning.

Cheers, Bob.

Sorry Bob, read post #1 again, 209 primers are too small for the primer pockets because these primer pockets are too large, don’t need to make them bigger! Can’t make my primers larger, so maybe swage the primer pockets smaller? Another helpful idea from another gun nut might be the old CIL 4 BP and another Nutter is going to measure one for me so we can compare measurements to my Brits. I have several different Fiocchi type European primers, larger than 209’s but still slightly yoo small for my hulls.

 

[stubblejumper]

Sorry Bob, read post #1 again, 209 primers are too small for the primer pockets because these primer pockets are too large, don’t need to make them bigger! Can’t make my primers larger, so maybe swage the primer pockets smaller? Another helpful idea from another gun nut might be the old CIL 4 BP and another Nutter is going to measure one for me so we can compare measurements to my Brits. I have several different Fiocchi type European primers, larger than 209’s but still slightly yoo small for my hulls.

Cheddite is larger than domestic
, Fiocchi is slightly larger than Cheddite.

 

[denydart]

Looking again I'm thinking the anvil & cups are smaller than a 4B. The silver one on the left is a 4B and is the same size as the anvil & cup as a normal 209. The brass one on the right looks closer but is unknown to me as far as manufacturer or number and I only ever got a dozen or so in a match box in an online auction. They must have been available at some time and somebody must know what they are. I can give you measurements if it might help.

That said, if you're really bent on it I'd consider having a typical (small primer) brass case turned down to match the primer size you need and (permanently) fit that primer pocket so you'd only need small pistol or rifle primers going forward.

 

[Ashcroft]

Thanks for all the the great ideas guys, you’re really putting on your thinking caps. The results so far………….
The diameter of the deprimed Brit primer is .255”, consider the primer pocket nominally that size, so I need a .255” diameter primer
Deprimed factory Winchester 209 is .242”, new W209 the same.
Deprimed factory Federal 209 is also .242”, new F209A the same.
My new Fiocchi 616 (209 Replacement) measure .244”, on.y .002” larger than Winchester and Federal.
A helpful CGN contributor offered some CIL 4 BP and measured them at the standard .242”, like the Win and Fed 209’s, too small for my 255” pockets.
He suggested a desperation one use only of epoxying standard 209 primers in place, discard after firing. I’m considering this option, weighing it against the risk of possibly damaging a rare and valuable antique ( and me, another antique). I’ve had loose primers and primers fall out from hulls that were well past their “best before” reloading date with no unusual effects noticed on a modern Beretta over/under but I’m not so confident on my 120 year old Westley Richards hammer gun even though it’s as tight as a new gun. Your comments and suggestions?

 

[cartwheel]

A longshot- you need 0.013", so what about a tiny strip of brass shim? Some 0.006" would do the trick, or a double wrap of 0.003" (maybe a bit easier with a double, but the shim stock is pretty fragile) Just need to cut it the right length and width and press in the new primer which sounds easy as I write this but could be a challenge to keep the shim from buckling.

The epoxy option may work too but I'm not sure I would do it myself. Epoxy can get places you don't want it to and then the hull is permanently ruined. The other idea above with the small primer holder also seems like a lot of effort but would pay off if the hulls are used a few times.

 

[Ashcroft]

Update - I ‘m very impressed with the level of attention and expertise my problem is recruiting, some creative and helpful ideas for sure, thank you all. To recap…….
These British 10 gauge paper cased hulls have excessively large primer pockets, our standard 209 size primers just drop in ( and fall out). Measurements…….
The deprimed eBrit primers diameter measures 255”. Standard 209 primers are….
Win 209 = .242”, new or deprimed
Fed 209 fired are also .242”. Fed 209A new measure .241
New Fiocchi 616 ( 209 TYPE) measure .244”, so larger than North American 209s but only .002” bigger, not nearly enough.
A helpful CGN contributor measured an obsolete CIL 4 BP, also .242”, so that’s another dead end although very helpful.
It was also suggested to seat standard 209 primers in the hull with epoxy for a single use and throw away and I’m considering this. In the past I’ve had primers back out after firing and even fall out of many times reloaded hulls, never caused any noticeable issue. But that was in a modern Beretta trap gun, not in a rare and valuable 120 year old antique. The gun is a heavily built Westley Richards side by side, excellent condition and tight as new butttt I don’t want to damage the gun or my face. The projected load will be 1 1/4 oz of shot over fibre and felt wads using 4 1/4 drams by volume of FFG black powder, a standard 10 gauge loading. Your thoughts and comments?

 

[Ashcroft]

A longshot- you need 0.013", so what about a tiny strip of brass shim? Some 0.006" would do the trick, or a double wrap of 0.003" (maybe a bit easier with a double, but the shim stock is pretty fragile) Just need to cut it the right length and width and press in the new primer which sounds easy as I write this but could be a challenge to keep the shim from buckling.

The epoxy option may work too but I'm not sure I would do it myself. Epoxy can get places you don't want it to and then the hull is permanently ruined. The other idea above with the small primer holder also seems like a lot of effort but would pay off if the hulls are used a few times.

I have some very thin shim stock, like you say it could be a frustrating fiddly procedure but maybe possible. I’ll see if I can do this tomorrow, being retired time isn’t an issue but my dexterity is slipping.

 

[RHS47]

I did get mixed up reading your original note.

Here's another idea. What about a short piece of a plastic drinking straw fitted over the primer & then inserted. Would it be enough? This idea comes from shotshell reloaders trying to reload Rio hulls with American sized 209 primers. Rio primers / primer pockets are known to be oversize vs. Win or Fed.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[hessels]

Remington once made a smaller primer a 97 I think it was called.We used to lay a thin piece of plastic on the primer and seat the primer normaly the trim of the plactic flush to make them fit 209 size hulls

 

[stubblejumper]

I did get mixed up reading your original note.

Here's another idea. What about a short piece of a plastic drinking straw fitted over the primer & then inserted. Would it be enough? This idea comes from shotshell reloaders trying to reload Rio hulls with American sized 209 primers. Rio primers / primer pockets are known to be oversize vs. Win or Fed.

Cheers, Bob.

I had to laugh when one of our skeet shooters was using pieces of drinking straw to get Remington 57 primers to stay in modern American hulls. I can't imagine how long it took him to load using those pieces of straw. I load 500 or so per session, and that takes me about two hours including clean up.

 

[Ashcroft]

Remington once made a smaller primer a 97 I think it was called.We used to lay a thin piece of plastic on the primer and seat the primer normaly the trim of the plactic flush to make them fit 209 size hulls

Another sharp idea! And easy if it works. I’ll definitely explore this, we have straws in several sizes, sort of hoarding them now.

 

[Ashcroft]

I had to laugh when one of our skeet shooters was using pieces of drinking straw to get Remington 57 primers to stay in modern American hulls. I can't imagine how long it took him to load using those pieces of straw. I load 500 or so per session, and that takes me about two hours including clean up.

Well this is a very small operation stubblejumper, probably no more than 10-20 at a time, maybe less. Paper 10 gauge hulls are the very best for black powder reloads but they’re hard to come by. Because they only last a few reloadings I’m always looking for replacements even though they don’t get used in volume. My go to source for paper 10’s has been vintage Canucks and Maxums at gun shows but they’re getting very scarce now. This high quality Scottish ammo landed in my lap, I’ve only fired a dozen or so at this point but I don’t want to waste the hulls without a serious effort reuse them. My time is not an issue, the luxury of retirement.

 

[ted_dent]

I had to laugh when one of our skeet shooters was using pieces of drinking straw to get Remington 57 primers to stay in modern American hulls. I can't imagine how long it took him to load using those pieces of straw. I load 500 or so per session, and that takes me about two hours including clean up.

I know what you're saying but sometimes people do things just to show it can be done. I've even seen kits for reloading 22 rimfire cases. How tedious that procedure must be.

At one time when boxer primed 7.62x54 cases were very hard to find I converted 45-70 cases into 7.62x54. Probably took me 20-30 minutes per case but in the end they worked. I got satisfaction out of just being able to actually do it.