Shotgun Vs. 45/70 or like rifles

Polar Bear Protection Which Do You Prefer?

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shoot'n

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I am going to Church Hill Manitoba and was wondering which you would take for bear protection, Mossberg Marine Shotgun or Marlin 45/70? This is strickly for defense not hunting, What would you take in Polar Bear country?

Shoot'n
 
It's got a little more range, hits maybe a little harder.

Not that shotguns are bad choices - but a good lever rifle with the right handloads is hard to beat.

If you can't handload, it might be a little different.

If for some reason you'd RATHER carry the shotgun, maybe it's lighter or whatever, that's fine. But a 45-70 is a pretty deadly little blaster.
 
I voted for the 12g for one reason only, for defence I could hold it on the shoulder for sustained aimed fire while I never was capable of doing that with a "can opener" :shock: :)
 
Both are good choices if you use hot handloads in the 45-70. for me it would be the 12 ga. with slugs - Easier to handle under stress-& more rounds . Shots will be at close range if its a defense situation. Whatever you pick I would invest a couple of boxes in a simulated bear defense exerrcise drillsfor instance standing prssenting & shooting as quickly as you can at close range.
 
So, what you guys seem to be saying is that if you don't load your own ammo then the 45/70 doesn't hit hard enough? What Factory ammo's whould be werthy of polar bear protection.
 
So, what you guys seem to be saying is that if you don't load your own ammo then the 45/70 doesn't hit hard enough?
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Well there are some 'warm' factory offerings out there, but few. 'Hard enough' is a relative term. :) People have killed big bears with 44 mags and 45 colts, so realistically even factory 45-70's are hotter than that.

But a quality shotgun slug is a pretty damn devistating thing to get hit upside the head with at close range too. So, it's kind of a bit of a close race in a defensive situation.

It has often been said that all else being equal a rifle is a better choice. However - the REAL answer will depend on your personal situation. For example - if you've shot shotguns all your life, hunted with them etc, and never used a lever gun you would probably be WAY better off with the shottie. There was an account posted recently where a guy borrowed a marlin guide gun for bears and hadnt' used one before, and when it came to the crunch he forgot a saftey, couldnt' figure it out in time and the bear mauled him. That guy would have been better off with something he knew.

Likewise, i spoke to an alaskan guide who prefered his 44 mag pistol to a shotgun for a light 'everyday' carry, whereas his buddy always carried a shotgun. When i asked him why he said he'd noticed in practice he had a bad habit of short-stroking the shotgun, whereas he was a deadly shot with his pistol and practiced enough to use it in his sleep. He knew the shotgun was 'better', but it wasn't 'better for him'.

I'll tell you this much - having talked to a lot of guides and other 'experts', and reading the accounts of who is and is not successful defending themselves with a gun, the shooter is more important than the gun. Which ever gun you can shoot better, prefer to carry, PRACTICE with religiously, THAT is the gun that is probably the best choice for you.

I've shot shotties all my life and can shoot them pretty good. I've never owned a lever gun, and have shot less than maybe a dozen rounds thru any. So if i were going into the woods today i'd rather have my shotgun vs ANY lever gun. Because a shotgun used well will beat a 45-70 used badly any day of the week.
 
The below written review shows what a 45/70 warm load can look like.

"Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges produces a 540-gr SuperHardCast dubbed the Hammerhead that is loaded specifically for modern Marlin lever guns. This load produces 2880 foot-pounds of energy, and has a Taylor Knockout Value of 55. Penetration is truly astounding; the venerable .375 H&H doesn't even come close. This has become the No. 1 choice of round and rifle for countless individuals and groups who must work in areas containing grizzlies and brown bears. And yes, the combo has taken Africa's Big Six - buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, rhino, hippo - quite handily. Not bad for a stubby brush gun and cartridge that went to the Battle of the Little Big Horn!"
- Tony Kinton, DEER & BIG GAME RIFLES, 2005
 
This is from the Cor-Bon website.
It also stats that temporarily unable to ship ammunition to Canada until further notice
45-70 Govt. 444 Marlin And Other Premium Loads


NEW
Everyone keeps asking for powerful loads for the .45-70 Govt. HERE THEY ARE! The 350gr Bonded bullet will slam through the toughest hide and bone that is likely to come down the trail after you. This load works great in the popular lever guns and will take on anything you encounter. Controlled expansion provides good penetration and a tissue tearing mushroom.
Added to the lineup is the 405gr Flat Point Penetrator. One look at this bullet and you know this is a load to be reckoned with. Nobody makes a bullet even close to this for power and penetration. The wide flat point, sharp crisp edges, and heavy full metal jacket combine to produce devistating knockdown energy. Like all the Cor-Bon Penetrator loads, no expansion is expected or needed. Bone crushing power will take on anything - anywhere.

.45-70 Government 350gr Bonded-Core Soft Flat Point
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1800 1658 1526 1405 1296 1248 fps
Energy 2519 2137 1810 1534 1307 1125 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.33 0.00 -5.07 -14.55 -29.55 in


.45-70 Government 405gr Flat Point Penetrator
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1650 1509 1380 1267 1172 1097 fps
Energy 2450 2047 1714 1445 1236 1082 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.66 0.00 -6.23 -17.88 -35.85 in



NEW
While the 444 Marlin may not be as common as it's cousin the 45-70Govt, it has a definite edge on power. The overwhelming popularity of the new lever action carbines has generated a explosive interest in this caliber. This is a powerhouse, capable of thumping the nastiest of bears or the biggest moose. Cor-Bon helps it keep the edge with two energy packed loads. Don't underestimate the compact power delivered by these loads. This is as good as it gets!

444 Marlin 280gr. Bonded-Core Soft Point
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 2200 2000 1818 1660 1586 1518 fps
Energy 3010 2481 2055 1712 1565 1433 ft/lb
Path -0.50 .84 0.00 -3.47 -6.36 -10.10 in


444 Marlin 305gr Flat Point Penetrator
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 2100 1920 1760 1616 1551 1488 fps
Energy 2987 2500 2097 1770 1629 1501 ft/lb
Path -0.50 .93 0.00 -3.74 -6.82 -10.80 in
 
Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges produces a 540-gr SuperHardCast dubbed the Hammerhead that is loaded specifically for modern Marlin lever guns. This load produces 2880 foot-pounds of energy, and has a Taylor Knockout Value of 55. Penetration is truly astounding; the venerable .375 H&H doesn't even come close.
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Its amazing how important bullet diameter and mass is vs just a foot pound of energy rating!
 
12ga ammo might be easier to get if you need to up there. When I go up north I take an 870 12ga, sometimes the ammo gets lost in transit and it is easy to replace.
 
Gatehouse said:
Which firearm do you have the most experience with handling and shooting?

That should be the number one question. :shock:
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Hey! There's no room for that kind of logical talk in a bear defense thread! :lol:

For me I'd go with the 45-70.
 
This summer my partner and I are going to visit a friend in serious bear country. He carries his 45/70 with 405 grain cast. I carry my 870 with 00 buck and slugs. Seems to sum up the conversation here. Both of us would tell you that the bear would have a hard time getting to us because of the lack of traction he would experience when chasing us...lol...Fred
 
Seems to me after reading the CorBon numbers that 1650 FPS is no screaming hell to start off a 405 gr bullet. They don't bring up barrel length but I know my 1885 starts 418 gr cast bullets at 1950. Maybe they load them down a bit in case some knob feeds them to his Trapdoor.

Garret or Buffalo Bore might be hotter.
 
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