Should we consider improved cartridges true wildcats?
- Thread starter Robmcleod82
- Start date
- Location
- Fraser Valley, B.C.
Personally I think of an Improved cartridge as just that an Improved version of the original but like you thats just my thoughts. A wildcat is something that was created and made by changing the cases original projectile caliber or a complete re design based off another case that someone came up with in a basement or shop.
Quoting from Wiki/Google “ A wildcat cartridge, often shortened to wildcat, is a custom cartridge for which ammunition and/or firearms are not mass-produced. These cartridges are often created in order to optimize a certain performance characteristic of an existing commercial cartridge, or may merely be intended as novelty items”
If we use this definition as true then some of the Improved cartridges are considered a wildcat but some aren’t. As i believe you can buy factory produced ammo for things like a 280 Ai from Nosler. That also means things that once may have been endorsed by a manufacture but has since become a “lead balloon” and fallen off the face of the earth could then be moved into the wildcat category if your have to order your own reamer to get a barrel cut because you cannot buy one pre built.
Very good question.
Cheers,
B
Quoting from Wiki/Google “ A wildcat cartridge, often shortened to wildcat, is a custom cartridge for which ammunition and/or firearms are not mass-produced. These cartridges are often created in order to optimize a certain performance characteristic of an existing commercial cartridge, or may merely be intended as novelty items”
If we use this definition as true then some of the Improved cartridges are considered a wildcat but some aren’t. As i believe you can buy factory produced ammo for things like a 280 Ai from Nosler. That also means things that once may have been endorsed by a manufacture but has since become a “lead balloon” and fallen off the face of the earth could then be moved into the wildcat category if your have to order your own reamer to get a barrel cut because you cannot buy one pre built.
Very good question.
Cheers,
B
Since you can still shoot factory ammo in them I'd say negative, not no wildcat. Not sure I've ever heard anyone call an AI version a wildcat though either, not in my crowd anyway.
280AI is a factory cartridge now even, so there is that to contend with as well.
On top of that, many Wildcats have been adopted by companies and turned into regular old factory cartridges with SAAMI specs and all that, 25-06 comes to mind.
A Wildcat today to me anyway, would require a painstaking amount of steps to make a cartridge from, like to the point nobody else would even bother lol
280AI is a factory cartridge now even, so there is that to contend with as well.
On top of that, many Wildcats have been adopted by companies and turned into regular old factory cartridges with SAAMI specs and all that, 25-06 comes to mind.
A Wildcat today to me anyway, would require a painstaking amount of steps to make a cartridge from, like to the point nobody else would even bother lol
- Location
- Fraser Valley, B.C.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
This, by my reckoning as well.^^
The correct terminology has not changed in all the years cartridges have existed ...
Factory ammo can not be chambered and fired in a wildcat chambering. What makes it a wildcat is that fact.
Factory ammo can be fired in any improved versions whether they be Ackley Improved with 40 degree shoulders, RCBS improved with 30 degree shoulders or any other "improved" versions.
So "improved" versions are not wildcats ... If you can fire a factory round in it, it is not a wildcat.
There are several instances where a cartridge started out as a wildcat but once a factory manufactures ammo for them, they lose that status.
7mm 08 is one example.
Factory ammo can not be chambered and fired in a wildcat chambering. What makes it a wildcat is that fact.
Factory ammo can be fired in any improved versions whether they be Ackley Improved with 40 degree shoulders, RCBS improved with 30 degree shoulders or any other "improved" versions.
So "improved" versions are not wildcats ... If you can fire a factory round in it, it is not a wildcat.
There are several instances where a cartridge started out as a wildcat but once a factory manufactures ammo for them, they lose that status.
7mm 08 is one example.
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nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Somehow, because you can shoot say 280 rem in a 280ai, that makes it not a wildcat. Yet you can't shoot the 280ai cartridge in a 280 rem. Doesn't that create a grey zone? It's certainly not a 280 rem, can't be chambered in a 280 rem, yet is now Saami recognized.
The 280ai is the most recognized, successful, common improved cartridge. What about wildcat cartridges later adopted by major manufacturers. The obvious ones I think of are the 25-06, and the 30-338 becoming the 308nm. People played with the 25-06 and 30-338 before they were adopted, not all rifles have the same spec as the now recognized dimensions. A grey area again.
Back to improved cartridges. Elwood epps, the man not the traitorous store, played with improving the 303 British. I've seen some P14 rifles go through auctions in Epps improved.
- Location
- Van. Is. B.C.
If the dividing line between a wildcat and a commercial cartridge is if any company makes ammo for it then wouldn’t my 219 Zipper be a wildcat again as ammo hasn’t been commercially made for it in 60-70 years? Ever since the 30+ year old wildcat the, .22 varminter, was adopted as the 22-250 the Zipper was doomed.
By the way Browning started producing wildcat 22-250 rifles in 1963 when no commercial ammo was available. Remington adopted the cartridge and put their name on it in 1965 along with producing ammo and chambering it in their 700 rifle.
Dad ordered his Savage 110CL (left hand) in 1969 from Elwood Epps with a straight taper Anschutz barrel and it is destined for my grandson as he is the only one to also use the “wrong” hand like dad.
By the way Browning started producing wildcat 22-250 rifles in 1963 when no commercial ammo was available. Remington adopted the cartridge and put their name on it in 1965 along with producing ammo and chambering it in their 700 rifle.
Dad ordered his Savage 110CL (left hand) in 1969 from Elwood Epps with a straight taper Anschutz barrel and it is destined for my grandson as he is the only one to also use the “wrong” hand like dad.
I tend to think of wildcats as anything that is not standardized- like the SAAMI post above. And that you cannot buy ammunition for either.
So most Improved cartridges I would lump under the wildcat name. Even if you can fire the factory version of the cartridge in your Improved chamber, it's not the correct ammunition for the rifle.
So most Improved cartridges I would lump under the wildcat name. Even if you can fire the factory version of the cartridge in your Improved chamber, it's not the correct ammunition for the rifle.
^Exactly. Who cares?
But firing the factory round to fire form it to the improved version is what makes it an improved cartridge... it is not a wildcat. The factory round is the correct round.
(post 17) Shooting a 30 06 out of a 338 06 simply means you have chambered and fired an incorrect round... the 338 06 is not longer considered a wildcat as factory ammo has been made for it.
The factory round is not the correct cartridge for an improved chamber. It may be correct to use it for fireforming but that doesn't make it correct for the chamber. I can shoot a .270 Win in a 280 chamber to fireform brass but that doesn't make it correct ammunition for the rifle either. And most improved cartridges still don't have standardized dimensions or pressures either.
But people can call things whatever they want, really. I haven't had a AI or Wildcat cartridge in quite a long time and probably never will again.
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