Siamese Mannlicher 88/90?

Eaglelord17

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Hi all,

I just saw this for sale at the linked site and was wondering if it was a Siamese M88/90 Mannlicher (not trying to advertise for anyone, just trying to see if I identified it correctly). I believe it is, however I am unsure as I have never seen any photos of one to compare it to. Well here is the link

http://www.collectorssource.com/steyr-mannlicher-model-88-90-rifle.html
 
True I did miss that. I wasn't intending on buying it (unfortunately my funds are at the low side for the moment) but I was curious if it was a Siamese contract or not, just because of the odd writing on the receiver and the giant symbol on the stock.
 
Hi all,

I just saw this for sale at the linked site and was wondering if it was a Siamese M88/90 Mannlicher (not trying to advertise for anyone, just trying to see if I identified it correctly). I believe it is, however I am unsure as I have never seen any photos of one to compare it to. Well here is the link

http://www.collectorssource.com/steyr-mannlicher-model-88-90-rifle.html

Why "Siamese"?

Steyr Mannlicher Model 88/90 Straight Pull Rifle

8 X 50 mm calibre. Steyr 1891 manufacture. Matching numbers. Hungarian military marked. Bore is very good.
 
Why "Siamese"?

Steyr Mannlicher Model 88/90 Straight Pull Rifle

8 X 50 mm calibre. Steyr 1891 manufacture. Matching numbers. Hungarian military marked. Bore is very good.

The Siamese contract consisted of 15,000-20,000 rifles from a unpaid HUNGARIAN contract, not a contract made specifically for Siam. What makes me suspect it could be a Siamese rifle is the weird symbol on the stock and the symbols on the receiver, which are not there on a normal M88/90.

The Mannlicher M88/90 actually had a big effect on the Siamese military as it is the reason why they went with the Type 45 cartridge and the Type 45 Mauser which has the distinction of being pretty much the only rimmed round M98 based Mauser ever adopted. The Siamese 8x50r is actually very close dimensionally to the Austrian 8x50r and there has been evidence to suggest they are actually designed to be interchangeable rounds (such as M88 Mannlicher clips with Siamese Type 45 rounds in the clip, and the fact the tolerances on the M88/90 are very weird as the round it used changed shape several times from 8x50r to 8x52r back to 8x50r when the round was finalized in 1893).
 
It may be possible, I haven't seen close up pictures of a Siam example. I did read that some were modified into short rifles while in Siamese service.
 
Quote Originally Posted by 05RAV View Post
Why "Siamese"?

Steyr Mannlicher Model 88/90 Straight Pull Rifle

8 X 50 mm calibre. Steyr 1891 manufacture. Matching numbers. Hungarian military marked. Bore is very good.

The Siamese contract consisted of 15,000-20,000 rifles from a unpaid HUNGARIAN contract, not a contract made specifically for Siam. What makes me suspect it could be a Siamese rifle is the weird symbol on the stock and the symbols on the receiver, which are not there on a normal M88/90.

The Mannlicher M88/90 actually had a big effect on the Siamese military as it is the reason why they went with the Type 45 cartridge and the Type 45 Mauser which has the distinction of being pretty much the only rimmed round M98 based Mauser ever adopted. The Siamese 8x50r is actually very close dimensionally to the Austrian 8x50r and there has been evidence to suggest they are actually designed to be interchangeable rounds (such as M88 Mannlicher clips with Siamese Type 45 rounds in the clip, and the fact the tolerances on the M88/90 are very weird as the round it used changed shape several times from 8x50r to 8x52r back to 8x50r when the round was finalized in 1893).

I guess, you are historically confused. At the time of the introduction of the Manlicher 88/90 into military service, Hungary did NOT exist as an independent country. It was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So what “Hungarian contract” are you talking about?
Having said that, there was, indeed, a contract between “Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft Steyr” (Austrian Armament Plants Co-operative Steyr) which produced weaponry for the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Bulgarian State (Principality of Bulgaria). Bulgaria defaulted on the contract and Steyr sold a large number of the M88/90 rifles from that contract to Siam in the 1890s.
Personally, I don’t see any evidence that the rifle is somehow related to that “Simese contract”. The marks on the receiver: OE WG, mean “Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft”. They are pretty normal. Nothing unusual here.
A weird mark on the stock looks to me like an ornamental “CK” initial, perhaps the name of a soldier who carried the rifle? Although, I’m not absolutely positive about that.
 
I guess, you are historically confused. At the time of the introduction of the Manlicher 88/90 into military service, Hungary did NOT exist as an independent country. It was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So what “Hungarian contract” are you talking about?
Having said that, there was, indeed, a contract between “Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft Steyr” (Austrian Armament Plants Co-operative Steyr) which produced weaponry for the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Bulgarian State (Principality of Bulgaria). Bulgaria defaulted on the contract and Steyr sold a large number of the M88/90 rifles from that contract to Siam in the 1890s.
Personally, I don’t see any evidence that the rifle is somehow related to that “Simese contract”. The marks on the receiver: OE WG, mean “Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft”. They are pretty normal. Nothing unusual here.
A weird mark on the stock looks to me like an ornamental “CK” initial, perhaps the name of a soldier who carried the rifle? Although, I’m not absolutely positive about that.

Before you start lecturing me on history please make sure you understand the history you are speaking of. Yes Austria-Hungary was a country, however look at the compromise of 1867 and you will understand that Hungary and Austria might have had the same monarch however they were separate countries under the same Emperor. Some stuff they had common control, and others were maintained separately. One of those things that was partially split was the military. There was a common military (the K.U.K), the Austrian military (the K.K.) and the Hungarian military (the Honved regiments). This is also why you will find B-P 'crest' date marked M95s and M88/90s as they were accepted into the Hungarian military.

However relooking I do see that it is a defaulted Bulgarian contract (my mistake, it is hard to find any information on these rifles, let alone such a small number of rifles like the Siamese ones), which actually strengthens the argument that this is a Siamese Mannlicher due to the fact it has the bolt handle with a stamped serial number which was something that was specified for the Bulgarians (Austro-Hungarian M88/90s have unserialized bolts, this also applied for the M95s as well). Seeing as it has the stamped bolt (zooming in I was able to read a '80' and seeing as the serial number on the barrel is 8065, I am fairly confident it is the serial number of the rifle), lacks the Bulgarian acceptance mark (a small lion on the receiver), and has the odd markings on the stock and receiver (OEWG is just the markings for Steyr as you have mentioned, however those were not the markings I was speaking of) I am fairly confident that this is a Siamese M88/90.

The markings on the stock I could discount if they were alone as soldiers from that area loved to mark the stocks with their initials (I have a Bulgarian M95 in 8x50r with several initials on it), but the markings on the receiver combined with the stock show it was a bit more organized than that. Soldiers will sometimes carve stocks, but to imprint metal requires some stamps and a hammer, and these stamps aren't a average European stamp. Here is the link to the exact picture with the stampings on the receiver (on the left hand side, close to the stock on the receiver itself).

http://www.collectorssource.com/med...3525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/t/steyr_nr46264.jpg

It would help if they had better photos but with the evidence available I am now fairly confident it is a Siamese rifle, or at the very least it has something going on with it beyond your average M88/90 rifle. Another thing with this particular rifle is the middle barrel band is on backwards, as the volley sight post should be on the right.

I am not really trying to be argumentative, just expand my knowledge on these odd rifles. Unfortunately information on Mannlicher rifle systems is very limited which means most that I learn is through hearsay or though knowledgeable individuals (I own the only book I know of, and it is a pretty poor book as far as they go, there is tons of information that could be added to it such as Bulgarian rifles and Siamese ones).
 
Before you start lecturing me on history please make sure you understand the history you are speaking of.

However relooking I do see that it is a defaulted Bulgarian contract (my mistake, it is hard to find any information on these rifles, let alone such a small number of rifles like the Siamese ones), .

Apparently, you learned something from me although you don't want me to lecture you on the European history. That's good.
Regarding the rifle why wouldn't you ask the owner of Collector's Source, Alf Fraser (afraser@globalserve.net or alternatively, csm@collectorssource.com), about the whereabouts of that particular rifle? I bought a couple items from them in the past. Actually, they are located in Acton, about 20 min drive from my place. The problem is that they don't allow to inspect any item by the buyer. This is a small business which I guess is understandable.
 
IMO bolt numbering was made in Bulgaria and probably during one of their reconditionings. Why do you thing bolt were numbered at manufacturer? I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there unnumbered Bulgarian bolts with gas escape hole.
 
I don't really want to bother them as I don't intend on buying it. If I did I would contact them, however to just ask them and waste their time just seems rude in my opinion.

IMO bolt numbering was made in Bulgaria and probably during one of their reconditionings. Why do you thing bolt were numbered at manufacturer? I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there unnumbered Bulgarian bolts with gas escape hole.

Did the M88/90 rifles have the gas escape hole? I know the M95s did, however I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the M88/90 was any different than the Austrian-Hungarian service rifles other than the Bulgarian acceptance markings and the stamped numbers on the bolt. Again it is difficult to find any information on these rifles and all help is appreciated.

Edited to add: a little off topic but most Mannlicher M88/90s I have seen which are Bulgarian contracts seem to have the volley sight post removed, was this Bulgarias practice or something done by others later on?
 
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I mentioned gas hole having m95 bolts in mind. I.e. if there are unnumbered m95 Bulgarian bolts with gas holes then they were not initially numbered at factories but rather were numbered by Bulgarians later during one of the reconditionings. So it's safe to assume the same about 88/90 bolts. IMO numbered bolt on any Mannlicher means rifle actually spent some time in Bulgaria.
 
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