Side berms as backstops - a request for your range rules

[CV32]

I would appreciate if as many action shooting groups (IPSC, IDPA, 3GN, etc) could offer their home range rules and policies when it comes to shooting against side berms that have also been sufficiently built and placed so that they can serve as backstops.

You can make comments here, but I would also appreciate PM's so that I can gather information more formally from you (via e-mail, etc.).

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[Northaways]

This is very timely as i’m having a meeting with our club exec on this subject on Saturday re. acceptable safe angles of fire when setting up IPSC and 3 Gun stages, so I’d also be interested in hearing the different club rules governing use of side berms / bays in action shooting sports and what they deem as safe angles of fire when setting up stages.

From my limited upstanding, seems CFO’s in each province can have very different rules governing this. And even within a province like Ontario, the CFO will allow something on one range and disallow it on another range down the road. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

 

[CV32]

From my limited upstanding, seems CFO’s in each province can have very different rules governing this. And even within a province like Ontario, the CFO will allow something on one range and disallow it on another range down the road. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Yep, that's the kicker. Hence my desire to know which clubs and provinces permit the use of side berms as backstops and how, specifically, they've managed to achieve it.

 

[667]

Yep, that's the kicker. Hence my desire to know which clubs and provinces permit the use of side berms as backstops and how, specifically, they've managed to achieve it.

You could just leave other clubs out of it and discuss your situation with your cfo range inspector.
I seriously doubt one cfo cares what other cfo's do in other jurisdictions.
It's not rocket appliances.
A lot of the inspection/approval process has to do with how well you articulate your planned usage.
Think semantics.

 

[CV32]

You could just leave other clubs out of it and discuss your situation with your cfo range inspector. I seriously doubt one cfo cares what other cfo's do in other jurisdictions. It's not rocket appliances. A lot of the inspection/approval process has to do with how well you articulate your planned usage. Think semantics.

Yeah, not really the point. I am actually looking for the "semantics", i.e. the nuances in your rules/policies that have allowed you to treat side berms as backstops, so that others can benefit from your good fortune. Whether it happened by chance, because you had a reasonable CFO/inspector, or your own smarts, is something I can figure out based on the responses. As I said, PM is good.

 

[Northaways]

PM sent.

 

[Northaways]

Yeah, not really the point. I am actually looking for the "semantics", i.e. the nuances in your rules/policies that have allowed you to treat side berms as backstops, so that others can benefit from your good fortune. Whether it happened by chance, because you had a reasonable CFO/inspector, or your own smarts, is something I can figure out based on the responses. As I said, PM is good.

That’s what i’m Interested in as well.

 

[CV32]

PM sent.

Thank you!

 

[fingers284]

if you set up at such an angle that Your side berm becomes the primary stopper it automatically becomes the backstop berm and must be of the same construction of any backstops you already have. A side berm of lesser height/thickness can only be used as a "splash-ricochet suppressant. You cannot place a target in front of an already existing backstop if the remaining distance to the backstop end is closer than already stipulated by the range guide. There should be a "cone" shaped firing parameter that pertains to your backstop dimensions with the Range Approval from the CFO at your club (if there isn't there will be a diagram in the Recommendation for Range Construction manual).

 

[CV32]

if you set up at such an angle that Your side berm becomes the primary stopper it automatically becomes the backstop berm and must be of the same construction of any backstops you already have. A side berm of lesser height/thickness can only be used as a "splash-ricochet suppressant. You cannot place a target in front of an already existing backstop if the remaining distance to the backstop end is closer than already stipulated by the range guide. There should be a "cone" shaped firing parameter that pertains to your backstop dimensions with the Range Approval from the CFO at your club (if there isn't there will be a diagram in the Recommendation for Range Construction manual).

Already familiar with the RCMP Range Design and Construction Guidelines. Looking for specific range/club experience.

 

[kb007]

Specific to IPSC, You may want to review rule 2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire and understand what it really means. We have a full 270 range at our club and for matches there were some who felt that anything other than "into the back berm" was not allowed.

You have to consider where the 180 line is if you are shooting into a side berm. In many cases 1 end of that 180 is going to end up where people may be, unless you rope it off or otherwise provide a barrier to stop people crossing the 180 line.

There is also rule 2.1.2.1 to consider: Subject to the direction and approval of the Regional Director, stage(s) or range specific muzzle angles (reduced or increased) may be permitted.

 

[Freedom Ventures]

Looking for specific range/club experience.

It's my experience that saying "Well, they do it this way there..." tends to get the opposite result that someone is looking for when dealing with government officials.
Use the information you glean cautiously...

 

[CV32]

It's my experience that saying "Well, they do it this way there..." tends to get the opposite result that someone is looking for when dealing with government officials. Use the information you glean cautiously...

Oh I'm well aware of what tends to happen when dealing with government authorities, thanks. Hence the request for details via PM etc rather than just broad commentary.

 

[welder179]

Our day to day range profile here in Saskatoon is for lane shooting from fixed positions. To have a match for IPSC or 3-Gun we have to apply for a temporary permit with the CFO valid only on the day(s) of the event. To get the permit we now have to submit our stage plans drawn to scale showing angles of fire and distances from targets.

That being said typical rule of thumb is to keep angles of fire at 75-90 degrees into the berms, and there's also a formula for protecting against standard aiming error, 10.7 degrees for pistol, 2.25 degrees for long guns. You use this calculation to determine a chance of a round hitting the ground and deflecting at a high angle or for a round going over the berms.

 

[CV32]

Our day to day range profile here in Saskatoon is for lane shooting from fixed positions. To have a match for IPSC or 3-Gun we have to apply for a temporary permit with the CFO valid only on the day(s) of the event. To get the permit we now have to submit our stage plans drawn to scale showing angles of fire and distances from targets.

That's interesting. I hadn't heard of that approach.

That being said typical rule of thumb is to keep angles of fire at 75-90 degrees into the berms, and there's also a formula for protecting against standard aiming error, 10.7 degrees for pistol, 2.25 degrees for long guns. You use this calculation to determine a chance of a round hitting the ground and deflecting at a high angle or for a round going over the berms.

Useful information. Thanks.

 

[welder179]

That's interesting. I hadn't heard of that approach.



Useful information. Thanks.

That's our system at this time, we are going through growing pains with this system and its still being adjusted as we find a happy medium. Obviously having to submit every stage is alot of extra work for both parties involved but once a stage is approved it's been approved and we then save them into a "play book" so for future matches this process may become more streamlined as we can simply reuse stages designs. The key here though is to add way more targets into your submitted stage plans then what you intend to use as you can build the stage with less than what's approved but not more. So there is some room to adjust each stage every time you use it so as to not have to much repetition.

Again this has been a learning curve for our MD's but we're starting to get the hang of it.

 

[Cameron SS]

Our day to day range profile here in Saskatoon is for lane shooting from fixed positions. To have a match for IPSC or 3-Gun we have to apply for a temporary permit with the CFO valid only on the day(s) of the event. To get the permit we now have to submit our stage plans drawn to scale showing angles of fire and distances from targets.

That being said typical rule of thumb is to keep angles of fire at 75-90 degrees into the berms, and there's also a formula for protecting against standard aiming error, 10.7 degrees for pistol, 2.25 degrees for long guns. You use this calculation to determine a chance of a round hitting the ground and deflecting at a high angle or for a round going over the berms.

I would love to know what tools, science or expertise the CFO in SK is relying on to approve those plans. Nothing in his training as an RCMP officer or CFO would have given him the expertise to do this. By approving it, he assumes liability for any incidents.

In the Military, there are two manuals that go hand in hand. Range Construction and Maintenance, and Range Training Safety. The design guide tells you what a safe range looks like and the Range Use guide tells you have to use them safely.

While the RCMP does have their own Range Design Guidelines, they do not, and to my knowledge, never have had any documentation or policy on safe use of existing facilities.

Per the design guide, any range where the side walls meet the height requirements of a backstop, you are good to go to use that sidewall as a back stop. But in theory if you are using the left side wall as a berm, then you don't have a left side wall anymore, and in theory you would need a range boxed in on four sides in order to be legal. In any event, once legal, the question because what is safe use.

I have yet to meet a single CFO, either RCMP or provincial, that had the knowledge to properly template a range based on the inaccurate ballistic templates in the range design guide, unless they were former military.

 

[Cameron SS]

That's our system at this time, we are going through growing pains with this system and its still being adjusted as we find a happy medium. Obviously having to submit every stage is alot of extra work for both parties involved but once a stage is approved it's been approved and we then save them into a "play book" so for future matches this process may become more streamlined as we can simply reuse stages designs. The key here though is to add way more targets into your submitted stage plans then what you intend to use as you can build the stage with less than what's approved but not more. So there is some room to adjust each stage every time you use it so as to not have to much repetition.

Again this has been a learning curve for our MD's but we're starting to get the hang of it.

SO the RCMP approves the stage plan and target location. Does he dictate where the shooter is permitted to be standing when engaging various targets? Does he dictate the route the shooter must take as they complete the stage? Does he dictate where the RO or other safety staff must be in relation to the shooter?

 

[Slavex]

we just had our range inspection done, and what a complete sh!t show. I'll be posting the results when I get the mailed info back from them, but I am expecting to see side berms removed from our approval as well as our special permission to shoot steel at 7yds (which we demonstrated and were approved for by the previous inspector). Not impressed. Also being told that we can't allow the cops to shoot full auto anymore, because you know, that's helping the public somehow.

 

[m39a2]

1. The CFO has no legal authority to inspect a range, ever!
2. The "range guidelines" are just that, guideline and have no force in law.

Tell the CFO what you are doing and challenge him to shut you down. The CFO does not have the legal authority to shut down a range, it must be in writing and it must come from the minister.

The CFO's authority from the minister also must be in writing, ask for the document that says so.

Finally, in court, ask the CFO to show the judge where his authority to "Inspect" a range comes from in the Firearms Act.

Stop cowtowing to the bullies and fight back.

Scott