SIG 320 Changes due to Drop Safe Issues

The problem of an AD was made possible by the weight of the trigger actually continuing to travel backwards once the gun "stopped suddenly" on a hard surface (like from being dropped) and at a very specific angle. They solved that by using a lighter piece for the actual trigger in order to reduce any momentum it may have if this were to happen again.

The new disconnector has nothing to do with drop safety and merely upgrades the mechanical of how the sear is released/reset.


p320-upgrade-explained-700x350.jpg



...and a vid to better explain it than me


 
RedApe said:
I doubt they would have done anything if they didnt win the army contract
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Really? The Glock is on it's 5th iteration, the M&P it's 2nd, although changes were made without marking them as a change in generations. All models evolve as issues arise or needs change. Take a look at the evolution of the Beretta 92. Youo need a spreadsheet to list and follow the models.

Take Care

Bob
 
Dsiwy said:
Great vid and good on SIG for fixing/improving the P320.
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They fixed it after it was made public that four people had been shot by the unsafe design. After SIG denied there was a problem, and then miraculously they had a fix a couple days later for the problem they said didn't exist.. Then they call it an "upgrade" because a recall requires them to legally contact all owners and make it right which could cost near $100 million for SIG. A voluntary upgrade is not mandatory and they're banking on people being too dumb or lazy to send it in to be repaired.

rkm456 said:
If memory serves SIG had fixed the military guns before hand.
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SIG fixed the problem mid trials after it was discovered by the military that they are not drop safe. Gov guns got fixed, the public got f**ked.

Canuck44 said:
Really? The Glock is on it's 5th iteration, the M&P it's 2nd, although changes were made without marking them as a change in generations. All models evolve as issues arise or needs change. Take a look at the evolution of the Beretta 92. Youo need a spreadsheet to list and follow the models.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

The Glock generations Bob were minor improvements, not safety related fixes. There's a certain amount of marketing that goes into them as well. Call it a new generation and people will chase it down and buy it without knowing or understanding the difference between old and new. the M&P had some minor tweaks and better trigger installed but it's the same gun..
 
Kidd X said:
The Glock generations Bob were minor improvements, not safety related fixes. There's a certain amount of marketing that goes into them as well. Call it a new generation and people will chase it down and buy it without knowing or understanding the difference between old and new. the M&P had some minor tweaks and better trigger installed but it's the same gun..
Click to expand...

The 320 is a solid design and is going to with us for a very long time. SIG should have issued a recall and installed the new trigger though. The Gen5 Glock is a new gun that looks like the older versions. New barrel, slide and trigger group and frame pretty much makes the Gen5 a new gun doesn't it? Why the change?

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
The 320 is a solid design and is going to with us for a very long time. SIG should have issued a recall and installed the new trigger though. The Gen5 Glock is a new gun that looks like the older versions. New barrel, slide and trigger group and frame pretty much makes the Gen5 a new gun doesn't it? Why the change?

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

The 320 is a poor design, in fact it's a copy of their 250 gun with the exception of a striker over a hammer. SIG recycled an old(failed) design and called it something new. The issue was more than the trigger itself, the fix involves machining the slide and installing a drop safety..Something that should have been there from the start. There are reports of sloppy fit if you routinely remove and install the chassis as well. No logical reasons for a full size gun if a compact does the same job but it does help separate people from their money when you offer a gazillion "different" choices.

The Gen 5 Glock has the same CHF barrel but with conventional rifling to please the reloading crowd. Naturally Glock markets it as their "marksman" barrel which convinces plenty of low IQ types that it is somehow superior or improved over their traditional polygonal rifled barrels. The Traditional rifling was also a requirement from the FBI for forensic purposes. Makes logistical sense to offer the same barrel for public guns as contract guns, one less change to worry about in the production cycle.

The Frame is a gen 4 frame without finger tabs, big deal... The flared magwell is pathetic but again it convinces people that it's better and they must buy it. The firing pin block was changed to an oval/reactangular shape vs round, the trigger mech is slightly different and offers a less spongy feel. It isn't better than a gen3/4 trigger nor is it a safety related change, it simply removes some spongy feel. The slide didn't change much at all, dimensional differences. Again, offering a gen 5 for the FBI and then something different for the public makes no logistical sense. The changes for the most part were requested by the FBI not suggested by Glock. People like having what the cool kids have so Glock capitalizes on that by offering near identical pistols for the public market. Notice that Glock started their gen5 campaign with the 17 and 19. The issued pistols for the FBI. They now offer the 26 and 34 as well. It's a marketing game..
 
KIDDX Yup we get it. Aside from the design changes (Frame, Slide, Triigger & Barrel rifling) to correct some issues that have risen the gun is the same. Too, Glock failed to consult you on the apparent, unwarranted changes. Welcome back.

Take Care

Bob
 
Kidd X said:
The 320 is a poor design, in fact it's a copy of their 250 gun with the exception of a striker over a hammer. SIG recycled an old(failed) design and called it something new. The issue was more than the trigger itself, the fix involves machining the slide and installing a drop safety..Something that should have been there from the start. There are reports of sloppy fit if you routinely remove and install the chassis as well. No logical reasons for a full size gun if a compact does the same job but it does help separate people from their money when you offer a gazillion "different" choices.

The Gen 5 Glock has the same CHF barrel but with conventional rifling to please the reloading crowd. Naturally Glock markets it as their "marksman" barrel which convinces plenty of low IQ types that it is somehow superior or improved over their traditional polygonal rifled barrels. The Traditional rifling was also a requirement from the FBI for forensic purposes. Makes logistical sense to offer the same barrel for public guns as contract guns, one less change to worry about in the production cycle.

The Frame is a gen 4 frame without finger tabs, big deal... The flared magwell is pathetic but again it convinces people that it's better and they must buy it. The firing pin block was changed to an oval/reactangular shape vs round, the trigger mech is slightly different and offers a less spongy feel. It isn't better than a gen3/4 trigger nor is it a safety related change, it simply removes some spongy feel. The slide didn't change much at all, dimensional differences. Again, offering a gen 5 for the FBI and then something different for the public makes no logistical sense. The changes for the most part were requested by the FBI not suggested by Glock. People like having what the cool kids have so Glock capitalizes on that by offering near identical pistols for the public market. Notice that Glock started their gen5 campaign with the 17 and 19. The issued pistols for the FBI. They now offer the 26 and 34 as well. It's a marketing game..
Click to expand...

Unlike any other pistol in its class, the P320 features a unique 5-point safety system, standard on all models:

- Striker Safety
- Disconnect Safety
- 3-point Take Down Safety System
- Takedown is prohibited without removal of magazine
- System prohibits takedown without slide locked to the rear

Features #1 and #2 mentioned above are to make the weapon "drop safe" only.

The "trigger safety" on a Glock is a drop safety, as described on Glock's website.

Glock's “Safe Action” System consists of "three automatic independently operating mechanical safeties" which are all effectively drop safeties.

The "firing pin safety" blocks forward movement of the firing pin (yes, Glock uses that term instead of striker). The only two ways to move the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin are: when the rearward movement of the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up toward the top of the slide, or; if a Glock is dropped in a way (for instance, on the top of the slide) that the momentum of the firing pin safety moves it toward the top of the slide.

What Glock calls the "drop safety" is the way the back end of the trigger bar interacts with the firing pin. The back of the trigger bar prevents the firing pin from moving forward until the trigger bar is fully to the rear and drops down away from the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin's movement. If a Glock is dropped on the top of the slide, the same momentum that moves the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin also ensures that the trigger bar cannot move away from the top of the slide to clear a path for the firing pin.

When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves rearward, raising the firing pin safety and, at the end of its movement, releasing the firing pin by dropping down out of the firing pin's path of movement. If a Glock is dropped with the muzzle pointing up, the trigger bar is relatively large and heavy and its momentum would move it rearward in the gun just as if the trigger had been pulled. If the trigger safety is not depressed (and it would not be in a drop), the trigger cannot move and the trigger bar, which is attached to the trigger, also cannot move.

The P320 also has drop safeties, but not one that is visible externally.

The P320 does not need a separate trigger safety because the trigger bar moves forward to fire.

For the long reason as to why, first look at the more-familiar Glock trigger operation.

To fire a Glock, the trigger pivots to the rear, pushing the trigger bar to the rear before releasing the striker. If a Glock was dropped on its rear, inertia would pull the trigger and trigger bar to the rear if that movement was not blocked by the trigger safety. A Glock trigger safety tab is too small and light for inertia to overcome the safety tab's return spring.

To fire a P320, the trigger pivots to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward before releasing the striker. If a P320 was dropped on its rear, the inertia of the part of the trigger below the trigger pivot would have to overcome the inertia of the part of the trigger above the pivot, the inertia of the trigger bar, and the force of the trigger return and trigger bar return springs to move the trigger bar in the direction opposite of the drop to release the striker.

sig-p320-fire-control-unit-fcu.jpg
 
Last edited:
Melnibonean said:
Unlike any other pistol in its class, the P320 features a unique 5-point safety system, standard on all models:

- Striker Safety
- Disconnect Safety
- 3-point Take Down Safety System
- Takedown is prohibited without removal of magazine
- System prohibits takedown without slide locked to the rear

Features #1 and #2 mentioned above are to make the weapon "drop safe" only.

The "trigger safety" on a Glock is a drop safety, as described on Glock's website.

Glock's “Safe Action” System consists of "three automatic independently operating mechanical safeties" which are all effectively drop safeties.

The "firing pin safety" blocks forward movement of the firing pin (yes, Glock uses that term instead of striker). The only two ways to move the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin are: when the rearward movement of the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up toward the top of the slide, or; if a Glock is dropped in a way (for instance, on the top of the slide) that the momentum of the firing pin safety moves it toward the top of the slide.

What Glock calls the "drop safety" is the way the back end of the trigger bar interacts with the firing pin. The back of the trigger bar prevents the firing pin from moving forward until the trigger bar is fully to the rear and drops down away from the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin's movement. If a Glock is dropped on the top of the slide, the same momentum that moves the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin also ensures that the trigger bar cannot move away from the top of the slide to clear a path for the firing pin.

When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves rearward, raising the firing pin safety and, at the end of its movement, releasing the firing pin by dropping down out of the firing pin's path of movement. If a Glock is dropped with the muzzle pointing up, the trigger bar is relatively large and heavy and its momentum would move it rearward in the gun just as if the trigger had been pulled. If the trigger safety is not depressed (and it would not be in a drop), the trigger cannot move and the trigger bar, which is attached to the trigger, also cannot move.

The P320 also has drop safeties, but not one that is visible externally.

The P320 does not need a separate trigger safety because the trigger bar moves forward to fire.

For the long reason as to why, first look at the more-familiar Glock trigger operation.

To fire a Glock, the trigger pivots to the rear, pushing the trigger bar to the rear before releasing the striker. If a Glock was dropped on its rear, inertia would pull the trigger and trigger bar to the rear if that movement was not blocked by the trigger safety. A Glock trigger safety tab is too small and light for inertia to overcome the safety tab's return spring.

To fire a P320, the trigger pivots to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward before releasing the striker. If a P320 was dropped on its rear, the inertia of the part of the trigger below the trigger pivot would have to overcome the inertia of the part of the trigger above the pivot, the inertia of the trigger bar, and the force of the trigger return and trigger bar return springs to move the trigger bar in the direction opposite of the drop to release the striker.

sig-p320-fire-control-unit-fcu.jpg
Click to expand...

This was a very informative breakdown. Thanks for it.
 
Canuck44 said:
KIDDX Yup we get it. Aside from the design changes (Frame, Slide, Triigger & Barrel rifling) to correct some issues that have risen the gun is the same. Too, Glock failed to consult you on the apparent, unwarranted changes. Welcome back.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Too is not a word you start a sentence with Bob, come on..

Like I posted above, the frame change is cosmetic which has ZERO influence on performance or reliability. The slide is dehorned, big deal. I believe the slide rail cuts are dimensionally different as are the frame rails. Nothing major but enough to be incompatible with older generations. Rifling style again is neither here nor there and is a byproduct of a gov contract requirement. The trigger mech is supposed to improve the trigger. I thought all you Glock haters were haters because Glock didn't change or innovate? Now that they change things you still hate on them? Perhaps your dislike for Glock is because you just think it's cool to not like the most popular and well designed pistol to date.

The 320 is just another attempt at copying the Glock recipe and like all the rest, it has failed miserably. In fact it failed the FBI trials and was failing the US army trials before it was adopted on the sole grounds of being over $100 million cheaper than Glock. The 320 and the 320 compact had abysmal reliability rates with BALL ammo and not much better results with hollow point. The compact guns saw less than 2000 rounds of testing which is a joke. A single action striker fired pistol with a trigger pull of 6.6lbs! What a dog! The reset is all but absent and if you find the reset you still have slack to take up before reaching the wall again. Sounds a lot like their legacy 22X series of guns. The 320 is still taller, wider, and heavier(a quarter pound heavier!) than a Glock 17. So tell me what does it do better than a Glock??

Melnibonean said:
Unlike any other pistol in its class, the P320 features a unique 5-point safety system, standard on all models:

- Striker Safety
- Disconnect Safety
- 3-point Take Down Safety System
- Takedown is prohibited without removal of magazine
- System prohibits takedown without slide locked to the rear

Features #1 and #2 mentioned above are to make the weapon "drop safe" only.

The "trigger safety" on a Glock is a drop safety, as described on Glock's website.

Glock's “Safe Action” System consists of "three automatic independently operating mechanical safeties" which are all effectively drop safeties.

The "firing pin safety" blocks forward movement of the firing pin (yes, Glock uses that term instead of striker). The only two ways to move the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin are: when the rearward movement of the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up toward the top of the slide, or; if a Glock is dropped in a way (for instance, on the top of the slide) that the momentum of the firing pin safety moves it toward the top of the slide.

What Glock calls the "drop safety" is the way the back end of the trigger bar interacts with the firing pin. The back of the trigger bar prevents the firing pin from moving forward until the trigger bar is fully to the rear and drops down away from the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin's movement. If a Glock is dropped on the top of the slide, the same momentum that moves the firing pin safety toward the top of the slide and out of the way of the firing pin also ensures that the trigger bar cannot move away from the top of the slide to clear a path for the firing pin.

When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves rearward, raising the firing pin safety and, at the end of its movement, releasing the firing pin by dropping down out of the firing pin's path of movement. If a Glock is dropped with the muzzle pointing up, the trigger bar is relatively large and heavy and its momentum would move it rearward in the gun just as if the trigger had been pulled. If the trigger safety is not depressed (and it would not be in a drop), the trigger cannot move and the trigger bar, which is attached to the trigger, also cannot move.

The P320 also has drop safeties, but not one that is visible externally.

The P320 does not need a separate trigger safety because the trigger bar moves forward to fire.

For the long reason as to why, first look at the more-familiar Glock trigger operation.

To fire a Glock, the trigger pivots to the rear, pushing the trigger bar to the rear before releasing the striker. If a Glock was dropped on its rear, inertia would pull the trigger and trigger bar to the rear if that movement was not blocked by the trigger safety. A Glock trigger safety tab is too small and light for inertia to overcome the safety tab's return spring.

To fire a P320, the trigger pivots to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward before releasing the striker. If a P320 was dropped on its rear, the inertia of the part of the trigger below the trigger pivot would have to overcome the inertia of the part of the trigger above the pivot, the inertia of the trigger bar, and the force of the trigger return and trigger bar return springs to move the trigger bar in the direction opposite of the drop to release the striker.

sig-p320-fire-control-unit-fcu.jpg
Click to expand...

I'm very aware of how a Glock functions, and it's a striker not a firing pin.

The last 3 "safety" features on the 320 are an absolute joke. They prevent nothing other than negligent discharges by idiots handling firearms. Not sure if they were thinking of their gov customers or public customers, who cares. CLearly 5 safety systems weren't enough or SIG wouldn't have the problems they have right now.

The 320 failed the drop test because the 320 is a SINGLE ACTION striker fired gun. The impact force allows the trigger and trigger bar to move far enough rearward to disengage the firing pin block. The force on contact is enough to allow the striker to slip the sear face. SO much for "ten years in development". Hence the requirement to mill the slide and install a dis-connector that doesn't freely move with inertia(which was not present on the 400,000 guns already sold) and install a lighter trigger and trigger bar. Lets not forget the second sear surface, the safety notch similar to that on 1911 pistols. Again, so much for "ten years of research and engineering". So in ten years they couldn't figure out that a trigger bar disconnect is important and practically standard. In ten years they couldn't figure out that a single action design runs the risk of sear/striker disengagement when significant force is applied. In ten years they couldn't figure out that a heavy trigger can move due to inertia imparted by the same significant force mentioned above... Not too bright at SIG.

The icing on the cake is their disgusting attempt to hide this problem. A problem discovered by the US military during trials and subsequently fixed. However the public guns were still defective and SIG made no attempt to fix the issue until they got caught lying about it. Then they decide to call it a "voluntary upgrade". I didn't know making guns safe to carry is considered an optional upgrade?! Not to mention the timeline, over a year to start fixing peoples guns! Great service....
 
Perhaps Glock or the US army will contact you in Time KIDDX. You really ought to move on up.

The Glock is one of the most successful handgun designs in history. Nothing to hate. It is an old design trying to stay current. The Gen 5 comes close. The changes you suggest are cosmetic are necessary if the major changes to the slide and trigger group were to be undertaken. The former was necessary due to the fact cracks in both the nose of the slide and side rear had been encountered by high use users. The latter...well the trigger on Glocks out of the box was, to be kind, rather pedestrian. The new gun may be viewed as an improvement or as an attempt to catch up that fell short.

In any event those who like the design will buy it and will be happy or not.

Take Care

Bob
 
The word “firing pin” is Glock’s word, and is on their web site. It’s what they call it. As I already said. Take it up with Glock

The cut out on the 320 slide for the disconnector to move is due to them changing the mechanical movement and has zero to do with being “more” drop safe. It already was there to begin with. I already said so and posted a vid explaining it.
 
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