Sig 556?

Gun Plumber

Gun Plumber

Regular
Rating - 100%
74   0   0
Location
Pembroke, On
The first time that I touched a Swiss Arms 550 I wanted one. I'm not shelling out that kind of cash for a toy and definately not a rock'n'lock toy but Sig is making a knock-off. Anyone have anything to say based on experiance? I read a T&E but it was all from a tech standpoint with nothing to say about reliability/usability.
I await your comment.
Cheers-Randy
 
Pretty sure it got classified as a 550 "variant" which is prohibited. Check out the pe90 though it's unrestricted as far as I understand (based on barrel length of course)
 
So let me get this straight...you touched a SAN, love the SAN but you don't want to spend SAN money so you would be willing to compromise (notwithstanding the prohib status) to get a rifle that really isn't that similar to the SAN and of lower (WAY lower) quality that was built to comply with protectionist American firearm manufacturing regs?

Wacky.
 
Well, when you put it like that....yeah. Actually I was trying to find out more about it. I hadn't made up my mind but I knew that 3k was a ridiculous amount to spend on a toy. I say toy because I am not taking it to battle. Paper doesn't shoot back.
Well, back to square one.
 
Why is it "way lower" quality?

I still haven't found a good answer. I had a sig 556, it was great...I've handled and shot a classic green, also nice. Not sure about the big difference though. When I've posted this question in the past, all I've gotten are poorly sourced anecdotes...does anyone actually have some DATA to show the difference? Everyone on this forum makes it sound like comparing a 556 to a swissarms is like comparing a century arms to an HK.

How do you justify the 3x increase in price? Again, please, no anecdotes or "someone who is LEO said that..." stories.
 
aspect said:
Why is it "way lower" quality?

I still haven't found a good answer. I had a sig 556, it was great...I've handled and shot a classic green, also nice. Not sure about the big difference though. When I've posted this question in the past, all I've gotten are poorly sourced anecdotes...does anyone actually have some DATA to show the difference? Everyone on this forum makes it sound like comparing a 556 to a swissarms is like comparing a century arms to an HK.

How do you justify the 3x increase in price? Again, please, no anecdotes or "someone who is LEO said that..." stories.
Click to expand...

I suppose it might have something to do with the destructive testing that was done on the Swiss Rifle's being so intense, SIG USA just doesn't do this, aren't the SIG America rifles mainly manufactured for the civilian market? I would think that not having been through the destructive testing to anywhere near the same degree may have an impact on people's opinion, the overall cost, and reliability of the rifle.

Also it is not simply a matter of someone said so, people in the states who have Sig 556's often complain about fit and finish and reliability issues. There are videos all over you tube of these rifles acting up. Those same issues, usually, are not encountered on Swiss Rifles. That being said, while I have no experience with a SIG556 I think it would be a fine rifle, just not in the same category as a Swiss.

Just my two cents anyway.
 
aspect said:
Why is it "way lower" quality?

I still haven't found a good answer. I had a sig 556, it was great...I've handled and shot a classic green, also nice. Not sure about the big difference though. When I've posted this question in the past, all I've gotten are poorly sourced anecdotes...does anyone actually have some DATA to show the difference? Everyone on this forum makes it sound like comparing a 556 to a swissarms is like comparing a century arms to an HK.

How do you justify the 3x increase in price? Again, please, no anecdotes or "someone who is LEO said that..." stories.
Click to expand...

It IS like comparing a century to an H&K. The Swiss Arms complies with all of the specifications for the 550 in terms of quality and reliability. Machining and fitting on the rifle is top notch. QC is incredible, and the barrel is nearly indestructible.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

2.- Weapon service life

2.1 Service life of individual components

The service life or individual components is classified into 4 groups as follows:

a) min. 10000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly
b) min. 15000 rounds barrel life
c) min. 15000 rounds for all other secondary components
d) min. 30000 rounds for major components.


2.2 Extended service life / Functional safety

- Experience indicates that depending on the grade of ammunition used, the barrel has to be changed after approx. 20000 up to 30000 rounds have been fired.

-15000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly are quite feasible: other small components will last for anything up to 30000 rounds.

-Major components such as trigger housing, bolt, receiver, plastic parts, the main components of the trigger action may readily be expected to withstand 40000 rounds.

-We have weapons at our plant which have major components still fully functional after firing 80000 up to 100000 rounds.
Click to expand...

I'm getting close to 8000 rounds through my rifle, and I haven't had a single parts breakage (except for a minor issue with the tritium insert on the front sight), and the rifle will still shoot MOA. AFTER 8K rounds!!!

If that doesn't speak to the quality, I don't know what will.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the 556 isn't a decent rifle. It is... but it's not in the same league as the Swiss Arms.
 
Ar180shooter said:
Mind you, this doesn't mean that the 556 isn't a decent rifle. It is... but it's not in the same league as the Swiss Arms.
Click to expand...

Can you explain the difference between the 556's cold-hammer-forged, nitride-coated barrel, and the 550's cold-hammer-forged, nitride-coated barrel?

Does anyone have a link to demonstrate that the 556 barrel would not complete these same tests or is in some other way deficient?

Nothing you said had anything to do with the 556. You just said that the 550 series is really good. That really doesn't mean that the 556 is not as good.

As I said in my last post...

aspect said:
does anyone actually have some DATA to show the difference?
Click to expand...

I get that the 550 series is great. I also get that it's really expensive and that the 556 is more affordable. What I don't get is how that leads to a conclusion about the quality of the 556.
 
aspect said:
Can you explain the difference between the 556's cold-hammer-forged, nitride-coated barrel, and the 550's cold-hammer-forged, nitride-coated barrel?

Does anyone have a link to demonstrate that the 556 barrel would not complete these same tests or is in some other way deficient?

Nothing you said had anything to do with the 556. You just said that the 550 series is really good. That really doesn't mean that the 556 is not as good.

As I said in my last post...



I get that the 550 series is great. I also get that it's really expensive and that the 556 is more affordable. What I don't get is how that leads to a conclusion about the quality of the 556.
Click to expand...

Sure. One is made in Switzerland, to the highest quality standards, and passes rigorous QC requirements, and which has undergone a comprehensive design and testing process. The other is an American commercial venture to produce a similar rifle for half the cost. As a result, QC and many other things isn't there. There is a good record of issues with the 556 rifles.

Umm... no... but it doesn't mean the 556 is as good either, and the simple fact is that it's not. The workmanship and quality just isn't there like the Swiss.

If I had a choice between an AR-15 and a Sig Sauer 556, I'd choose the AR-15 easily. Between an AR-15 and the Swiss Arms, classification and cost aside, I'd choose the Swiss. Luckily I don't have to choose, and have both a quality AR-15 and a Swiss Arms.

Seriously? A quick google search could have answered that. Peening issues with the bolt, barrel alignment issues, sights falling off, temperamental accuracy and reliability, general QC issues, etc.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/4900034382
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_45/356443_.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwzUE3F-iT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrObcZb_CCI&feature=related
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?76131-Sig-556-problems-can-anyone-help
http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12036
 
aspect said:
Why is it "way lower" quality?

I still haven't found a good answer. I had a sig 556, it was great...I've handled and shot a classic green, also nice. Not sure about the big difference though..
Click to expand...

If you have handled them both you would not be asking this question and would have no doubt about the differences.

For starters is there a color difference between the piston springs? Hardness of the barrels? Why type of material are the mags made from, are they the same or different? Can the us made barrel withstand .... How many thousand rounds on full auto, water bath full auto cycles? These are just a few of the differences, but the most obvious one is when you handle them, anyone who knows firearms can tell immediately which is a superior firearm.

In fact a service grade 550... Non retail, can be crude and it's still a far better product than the 556.
 
Fwiw, considering the lifecycle of a rifle, the 550 is not expensive. In fact often has an overall lower ownership cost than a $900 ar does.
 
Yeah...I still don't see it. I really do get that there are people who have had problems with early 556 stocks, and some percentage of guns that shipped have had quality issues (like pretty much any other manufactured product). I don't see that as making the rifle bad, or making any other valid comparisons. How many PE90's have been sold in Canada, in order for us to make a fair comparison in terms of defect rates?

I actually did do a quick google search, and didn't really find anything that supported whether the 556 was as good as the PE90 or not, so I didn't bother to post any links. Some anecdotes about how some bad rifles have been shipped over the past few years doesn't really have anything to do with whether the rifle is as good or not. It does sound like there have been some problems with Sig's inspection process in the past, but realistically that doesn't have anything to do with the rifle design, how long the parts will last, whether it will function under severe testing, etc which is the essence of your last post.

All arms manufacturers have a "scrap" rate for parts in progress as well as finished guns that do not pass inspection, and I'm certain that includes the swiss factory that produces the PE90. The defect rate, however, doesn't reflect on the rifle design or the quality of materials used...it's simply a reality of manufacturing. If we were able to compare actual failure rates for the PE90 vs the 556, I wouldn't be surprised if the 556 experienced a higher rate of shipped defects. Again, it might mean that there's some crappy inspectors that work (worked?) at the plant, but I don't really see how it reflects on the rifle design.

There are plenty of companies that make products for a lower cost than others, yet their products are still competitive in terms of performance and quality. If you could provide a comparison of barrel life, reliability testing, or some information about negative changes to the design then I would be very interested to read it. Otherwise, the discussion is just a matter of opinion.
 
aspect said:
Yeah...I still don't see it. I really do get that there are people who have had problems with early 556 stocks, and some percentage of guns that shipped have had quality issues (like pretty much any other manufactured product). I don't see that as making the rifle bad, or making any other valid comparisons. How many PE90's have been sold in Canada, in order for us to make a fair comparison in terms of defect rates?
Click to expand...

Firstly, nobody has said that the 556 is a bad rifle (other than you), just that it isn't up to the same level of quality as the Swiss Arms.

rellascout from THR.org said:
The 556 is similar Americanized version which used the same gas piston design but uses cheaper furniture and accepts AR mags. Sig really botched this gun IMHO. They could have brought in a 550 type rifle with a high level of craftsmanship similar to what the Swiss used to produce but with updated changes. Instead they cheapened it to try to complete in the LEO/Govt contract world. It took several generations of the 556 to get to the point where people liked them and they could produce a reasonable reliable rifle. They even brought one out in 7.62 which has a terrible rep for reliability. I lost interest in them long ago and people still report spotty QC which does not surprise me because I believe most of what comes out of Exeter these days has been cheapened vs the old school models. They days you can get a stripped down version at Walmart for under $1000.

They finally brought out a "classic model" which shares more of the characteristics of the original 550 series guns but it is not made to the same build quality as the Swiss guns. They sell for about $1400 and look like the 550 and even use some German/Swiss furniture IIRC.
Click to expand...

To continue:

Some anecdotes about how some bad rifles have been shipped over the past few years doesn't really have anything to do with whether the rifle is as good or not.
Click to expand...

Wait, what?

Some anecdotes about how some bad rifles have been shipped over the past few years doesn't really have anything to do with whether the rifle is as good or not.
Click to expand...

Umm... that's a pretty good indication that the rifle has issues... you know... when they have issues... The same can't be said for the Swiss Arms.

All arms manufacturers have a "scrap" rate for parts in progress as well as finished guns that do not pass inspection, and I'm certain that includes the swiss factory that produces the PE90. The defect rate, however, doesn't reflect on the rifle design or the quality of materials used...it's simply a reality of manufacturing.
Click to expand...

That's where the quality of workmanship and QC comes in. By not letting those bad parts pass inspection, and not making them in to a rifle in the first place, you get BETTER RIFLES. How is this difficult to understand?

It does sound like there have been some problems with Sig's inspection process in the past, but realistically that doesn't have anything to do with the rifle design, how long the parts will last, whether it will function under severe testing, etc which is the essence of your last post.
Click to expand...

The difference between the two rifles isn't design, but quality... which is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Parts that are better made, as with the Swiss, and that are put through more rigorous QC and higher tolerance requirements will function better under severe testing. Again, this isn't hard to understand.

There are plenty of companies that make products for a lower cost than others, yet their products are still competitive in terms of performance and quality. If you could provide a comparison of barrel life, reliability testing, or some information about negative changes to the design then I would be very interested to read it. Otherwise, the discussion is just a matter of opinion.
Click to expand...

And Sig Sauer reduced costs by cutting corners and making an inferior rifle. This isn't a matter of opinion either. It's quite well established that the genuine Swiss rifles are superior to the American made copies.
 
Think of it this way, the original SIG/Swiss Arms Stgw.90/PE90 are manufactured at a very high standard to satisfy the Swiss military and export government sales.

The USA SIG Sauer made SIG556 is a commerical offshoot, or should I say a mediocre clone of the original Swiss product. They are made for the American commerical market in mind, which do not require to meet the high quality standards set for the Swiss military trials.

My best analogy to this would be a Colt VS a Bushmaster, they may all look alike and work right out the box, but their similarities end once you place them through the paces in the serious field.

Is the Swiss really worth that much more than the Yank rifle? If you want to run it hard for a worry free 30000 rounds, I sure think so.
 
Twyeh and 180, the chap said he has handled both. All the guys I know that have handled both understand the difference without explanation. I don't think saying the same over and over is going to change anything. Also he is asking for test results which are rarely given out. Any company looking at fielding guns does a lot of testing. There is a reason the 556's are never fielded whereas the Swiss, and even Chilean 55x's are all over the world.
 
Actaully early 556's were excellent rifles as they were made with all Swiss internals and barrels. The first 3 thousand or so. Many guys who know try and buy them up as the quality is every bit as good as the 550. Sig USA was slow in tooling so snuck some surplus parts in. You can tell by the color of the steel. Not to hard to distinguish really.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom