Sig M17 or Glock 17/19x?
- Thread starter chip54321
- Start date
I haven't heard, doubt they'll tell us until they fix it lol.
I would've been more inclined to believe that, had it not happened to multiple, highly trained operators, in different outfits.
You really think its better than the APX? I did read, that the only reason they chose the Sig over the Beretta was the price point.. Though I've been misinformed before, I am thoroughly happy with my APX lineup.
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some people want to believe that. some others as put all the incidents related to that specific frame ... time will tell ...
those 2 threads should inform you that sig had some issues and not caused by a dremel ...
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...the-C22-Modular-Pistol?highlight=incident+sig
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...D-wounds-federal-agent?highlight=incident+sig
The incident in Canada was that an improperly modified holster engaged the trigger while it was being holstered, We know this because the incident was years ago and only recently reported by the news but there was an investigation and that was the findings. The P320 did have an issue at the start with the trigger and being dropped a certain way could cause a discharge but that was why there was and is a recall on those first ones but that is almost 4 year old news now and the ones built after that fix have all been fixed. Glock was not perfect off the line either almost no firearm is, Like all things there are bugs that unexpectedly turn up and need to be addressed and the P320 has been fixed for a long time now ! The recall for the drop trigger issue was waaaaay back in 2017
WRONG WRONG WRONG
There were two "voluntary upgrades". SIG never issued a formal recall, and that was for financial reasons. The initial "voluntary upgrade" was for the unintential discharges when the gun was dropped. That issue was fixed for the US Army during the trials, but was not made public until several cases of such incidents made there way to the public eye. SIG denied there was even an issue until the stories were posted alone. SIG then found a solution to the "non existent problem" in less than four days... That's awfully amazing.
SIG 320 pistols both PRE and POST "voluntary upgrade" have been reported and confirmed to have gone off IN A HOLSTER without any human contact. I will list the incidents being cited as evidence in the latest case "Guay vs SIG Sauer". I'll leave a link to the legal brief, the fun reading starts around page 23.
Here you go.. The first incident in the list was apparently caught by dash cam and body cam footage from two officers. I can't find the footage but there are still photos from the video in the legal brief. Another incident(point 94) was also caught by surveillance camera and witnessed by citizens.
https://www.unionleader.com/news/co...cle_63c8f130-af21-5eb0-b67d-c12943be8493.html
For example, in February of 2016, a fully-holstered P320 discharged without a trigger
pull inside a Roscommon, Michigan police officer’s vehicle when the officer moved to exit the
vehicle during a snowstorm. The incident was captured on the officer’s body cam video (fn. 3
above) and shows that no object entered his holster at any time.
65. In 2016, the Surprise, Arizona, police department complained to SIG of two separate
incidents of P320s firing without trigger pulls.
66. Despite outstanding discovery requests in a civil action against SIG regarding defects
with the P320 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia in 2018,
Vadnais v. SIG Sauer, Inc., 1:18-cv-00540 (EDVA 2018), these three incidents described in
Paragraphs 64 and 65 herein were not disclosed by SIG, until the last day of discovery.
67. In October of 2016, a P320 fired un-commanded on retired NYPD officer Thomas
Frankenberry in South Carolina, severely injuring him. The spent casing did not eject.
68. In November of 2016, a P320 fired un-commanded on an officer in Holmes Beach,
Florida, striking him in his leg.
69. In 2017, a sheriff’s deputy in Michigan accidentally discharged a SIG Sauer pistol,
striking a schoolteacher in the neck.
70. On January 5, 2017, a P320 shot a Stamford SWAT team member in his left knee when
the pistol fell from a distance of less than three feet to the ground while fully holstered, refuting
SIG’s express representations that the weapon is drop safe, cannot fire without a trigger pull,
and does not require a safety to be drop safe.
71. On February 28, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged while in use by the University of
Cincinnati Police Department.
72. On June 14, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Wilsonville, Oregon.
73. On June 20, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged while in use by the Howell Township,
NJ, Police Department.
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74. In June 2017, SIG shipped approximately 800 P320s to the Loudoun County Sheriff’s
Department in Virginia, privately assuring Sheriff David Chapman that the by then known
problems with the weapon would be fixed, but stating that for the time being it had to deal with
the weapon as currently manufactured and designed. Three P320s within this shipment later
fired without trigger pulls on three deputy sheriffs, severely injuring them. 4
75. On July 28, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Tarrant County, Texas.
76. On August 7, 2017, SIG’s CEO, Ron Cohen, stated in a press release that: “there have
been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. Commercial market.” This
statement was not true. In fact, at the time it was issued, SIG had direct knowledge that Officer
Vincent Sheperis in Connecticut had been shot by a drop fire with the commercial version of the
P320 approximately eight months earlier, as well as several other defective discharges of the
P320 before that date.
77. As noted, on August 8, 2017, SIG announced a “voluntary upgrade” program for the
P320 pistol, stating that the pistol meets “rigorous testing protocols for global military and law
enforcement agencies” and all “U.S. standards for safety.”
78. This statement was also false and intentionally misleading as there are no United States
federal government standards for gun safety, a fact well known to SIG when it issued this press
release.5
79. SIG’s VU program, as noted, was presented to the public as purely optional, not urgent,
and not mandatory, offering to make existing commercial versions of the P320 “better” by
installing a much lighter trigger, an internal disconnector component, and an improved sear to
prevent accidental discharges.
4
Both a non-upgraded and “upgraded” re-designed versions of these P320s later fired un-commanded
on and hit at least three Loudoun County deputy sheriffs in 2018 and 2019.
5
No federal agency oversees how firearms are designed or built. Congress exempted firearms from any
federal regulation when it created the Consumer Product Safety Commission in 1972, due to Second
Amendment concerns.
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80. On August 9, 2017, the police chief of Morrow, Georgia, issued an emergency order
removing the P320 from service.
81. In October of 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Georgia when an officer fell to the
ground in pursuit of a suspect. His weapon was holstered and fired simply when he struck the
ground.
82. On November 12, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Tyler, Texas.
83. In January 2018, upon information and belief, a P320 accidentally discharged in Dallas
County, Texas.
84. On February 7, 2018, Loudoun County, Virginia, deputy sheriff Marcie Vadnais’s P320
fired on her un-commanded severing her right femur causing catastrophic skeletal injury,
deformity, four general anesthesia surgeries, severe emotional distress, and related trauma,
ending her career. Upon CAT scanning her P320, it was found to have both a product and
manufacturing defect: crossed sear springs that apply upward spring pressure to the sear to
keep it from releasing the striker.
85. Months later in April of 2018, SIG issued a second “voluntary upgrade” notice to all
users or owners of the P320, but still did not recall the weapon.
86. In May of 2018, civilian Gunter Walker reported to SIG that his P320 fired on him uncommanded when he placed the weapon down on his nightstand, shooting him through the
palm of his left hand.
87. In June of 2018, a Williams County, Ohio, officer reported that his P320 discharged twice
in one moment as he was merely attempting to move the slide backward. One round grazed
the officer’s arm; the other blew through his patrol car’s driver’s side door.
88. In May 2018, a Rancho Cucamonga, California, officer reported that his “upgraded”
P320 fired un-commanded while he was merely walking inside his department locker room; the
casing of the round did not eject.
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89. In October of 2018, a P320 fired un-commanded on Lieutenant Letrell Hayes in Georgia
while he was holstering it, causing severe tunneling injuries to his right thigh and calf.
90. In October of 2018, firearms expert and retired law enforcement officer Stephen Mayes’
P320 fired on him un-commanded while seated in its holster, causing severe injury to his right
leg.
91. In December of 2018, civilian Robert Lang’s P320 fired on him un-commanded, causing
severe tunneling wounds to his right leg.
92. On May 19, 2019, the upgraded P320 of Lieutenant Thomas Ahern of the Cambridge,
Massachusetts, SWAT team fired un-commanded inside a SWAT van with six other occupants
while he was working a shift for the annual Mayfair event near Harvard Square. The round
struck a metal plate affixed to his cellphone case, deflected into a SWAT gear bag, and came to
rest in a ballistic helmet, narrowly missing everyone. The casing of the round did not eject.
Lieutenant Ahern is a SIG-certified armorer on the P320 with significant weapons experience. 6
93. On July 23, 2019, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Walter Collette, Jr.
of the Somerville, Massachusetts, police department, hitting him in his leg and causing
substantial injuries to his leg. The next day, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on a
Homeland Security Agent at a firing range in the Bronx, New York.
94. In August of 2019, a Philadelphia transit officer’s upgraded P320 fired un-commanded
while fully-holstered, nearly striking a bystander in the subway. The incident was captured on
video, it shows an “upgraded” P320 firing without the gun ever being touched and seated inside
6
According to SIG Sauer documents, “[t]he SIG SAUER factory armorer certification enables the agency
armorer or individual user to completely disassemble, inspect, service, and re-assemble associated
weapon systems without voiding the factory warranty. Proper and routine weapon maintenance and
inspection of a firearm are essential to ensure maximum reliability. Factory armorer courses at SIG
SAUER Academy certify agency armorers or individuals to maintain, inspect, service, and repair selected
SIG SAUER firearms while preserving the factory warranty. Upon successful completion, armorers will
fully understand each firearm and be factory-certified for a period of three years.”
https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/course/armorer-certification
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its holster. The officer involved, who noted that the round almost hit a bystander, was returned
to duty the next day fully exonerated and with no discipline.
95. The Philadelphia transit authority replaced all SIG P320s, and later fully exonerated the
officer of any alleged wrongdoing in view of the content of the videotape of the incident showing
that it fired without a trigger pull. The officer, Craig Jacklyn, later stated:
This weapon is a hazard. I actually spoke with a lawyer for my situation. Although no
one was hurt...someone could have been killed. I'm angry that I was put in a potentially
life altering position with a product deemed "safe" by its manufacturer. The fact that
officers are carrying this weapon on the job and at home around family thinking it's safe
even while resting in its holster has me very angry. Everything that I've told you is
documented through 2 Investigative Services . . . Philadelphia Police Firearms
Investigative Unit/ Officer Involved Shooting Incident Unit and SEPTA Transit Police
Criminal Investigations Unit. There is station video footage/ body worn camera footage
as well.
96. On September 3, 2019, another upgraded and re-designed P320 in use by the Loudoun
County, Virginia, sheriff’s office fired un-commanded on another Loudoun County deputy sheriff,
Carl Costello, hitting him in his leg.
97. On October 10, 2019, Officer Jacques Desrosiers, also of the Cambridge,
Massachusetts, police department, was shot by his P320 without a trigger pull. The round
caused massive and life-changing injuries to Officer Desrosiers. The spent casing of the round
did not eject.
98. On October 11, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Veterans Affairs police officer
Frank J. Kneski, striking him beneath his lower back as he was un-holstering the weapon. Upon
inspection it was found that the spent casing did not eject.
99. The Kneski discharge was investigated by Major Peter J. Villani of the United States
Veterans Affairs police agency, also a SIG-certified armorer. In his report, he noted the
following:
After reviewing the Officer’s sidearm, it was noted that the P-320 came from Sig Sauer
to the distributor prior to the point of sale already with the “upgrade” completed. The
sidearm had approximately 100 rounds through it since purchased.
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Upon further examination of the internal parts of the frame module, I noticed that the foot
of the striker that catches the [sear] has noticeable side to side and up and down
movement within its channel along with upward movement of the slide from the frame.
Also, the edge of the striker foot which has a height thickness of approximately 2mm, is
only making contact with approximately .25 of a mm of the leading edge only of the
disconnector hook. Since the striker has been changed with a lighter weight version
during the “upgrade program”, it is quite possible that any abrupt movement or twisting
of the P-320 while holstered, could cause the foot of the striker to disengage itself from
the disconnector hook on its own since there is so little contact between the striker foot
and the [sear].
100. On November 9, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Matthew Gardette of the
Manteca, California police department as he was getting ready for work. As he merely
attempted to place and fasten his duty belt around his waist, the P320 discharged inside the
holster.
101. The holster was a Safariland level three holster with the hood cover up securing the
pistol. The round blew out the bottom of the holster, impacted the locker room floor, and missed
both Officer Gardette and a fellow officer by inches as it ricocheted into a locker door.
102. On December 2, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded while in the possession of Detective
David Albert, also of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, police department, as he was in the
process of putting his duty belt on.
103. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a Pasco County, Florida officer,
severely wounding him in his right leg. This incident was the third un-commanded discharge
experienced by Pasco County officers since 2019.
104. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a civilian in Missouri while fully seated
in its holster, causing substantial damage to the holster and resulting in a broken bone to the
civilian’s foot.
105. Upon information and belief, employees at SIG’s own training academy in New
Hampshire have knowledge of defective discharges causing injury that occurred in both 2016
and 2017.
SIG won the US Army contract on dollars alone. The trials were halted mid way after SIG tabled their insanely low offer which resulted in the US Army saving over a $120 MILLION. Money talks. That contract included guns, parts, holsters, suppressors, magazines, and ammo. SIG offered a P250 with a facelift and called it "new and cutting edge". They're lemons that offer nothing revolutionary. Ok, the pointless modular chassis, which if you swap a handful of times becomes loose and fails to lock tightly into the frame, but who's checking. The US Army wanted a transformer gun because.... Well who knows why, it's a dumb requirement. The answer should have been to buy all compacts. There's nothing a full size gun can do that a compact can't. What's even more ironic is that in the end, the US Army bought nearly 200,000 guns with something like 6000 being compacts. All that fluff for a very minute quantity of compacts.
One last point. The NOT drop safe issue, was discovered by the US Army during trials, not by SIG. Sounds like a thoroughly tested design to me..
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have heard the same well before about glock lol ...
