Sig, STI, or CZ for first pistol?
- Thread starter Mark S.
- Start date
shot a SIG once, it was nice. never shot a CZ. shot a few 1911 style pistols, found them to be too skinny but recoil was very manageable. my fav so far, though, is a taurus 92 (beretta 92). as soon as my RPAL is here, that's the pistol i'm most likely to get. no idea how a CZ would feel, but maybe i'll try it out this weekend.
actually i still have a hand cramp from trying to properly grip and control a 1911's skinny-ass grip. i'm probably one of the few that LIKES the Glock's big blocky grip, and heck even a large-frame S&W revolver is comfy (the medium frame is smallish)
actually i still have a hand cramp from trying to properly grip and control a 1911's skinny-ass grip. i'm probably one of the few that LIKES the Glock's big blocky grip, and heck even a large-frame S&W revolver is comfy (the medium frame is smallish)
You know, I don't find the Glock to be all that big and blocky; I just don't like the angle and shape of the grip. In my hands, the the Glock palm swell is in the wrong place and creates a "hole" in my grip into which the gun will always try and recoil. So it feels like it wants to squirm out of my hands as it is lifting and I compensate automatically by choking down on the gun harder than necessary. Tension kills speed, so it's a bad mix for me. As well, the Glock grip angle points high, which is of course a common complaint with 19/2011 users. CZ's share the same grip angle as 1911's and the palm swell on them tends to fill the hand rather than deflect it.....for me.
A lot of this is just a case of what you are used to.
Which, if not both, of the action shooting sports do you want to play in? If it is IPSC exclusively, then the CZ Shadow certainly is a great gun. Unfortunately out of the box it weighs to much for IDPA. This can be easily rectified by purchasing Dennis Marshal thin grips out of Hungry ($60.US landed) and replacing the mag brake with one meant for the 75B.
Alternatively, the CZ 85 Combat works great in both sports. Lighter than the Shadow, it makes weight limits for two IDPA Divisions it can be shot in. I find I can drive the CZ 85 Combat slightly faster than the Shadow when shooting IDPA. For IPSC I prefer the Shadow. Both guns are stupid accurate and will out shoot most shooters IMHO. Both benefit from lighter mainsprings which are inexpensive and easily replaced.
With a lower bore axis the CZ line does have some advantages over the Sig, though this is very much shooter dependent. Shooters with less ability will likely not see much difference in their scoring due to the bore axis difference -there are a few other things at play that effect scores as well.
All the guns mentioned in your post are dead nuts reliable. They all go bang when the trigger is pulled and a cartridge is in the chamber.
You won't be selling the gun due to wearing any of them out.
Pick one, practice lots and enjoy your first handgun. You likely will never sell it as it is the first but it won't be the last.....
Take Care
Bob
Alternatively, the CZ 85 Combat works great in both sports. Lighter than the Shadow, it makes weight limits for two IDPA Divisions it can be shot in. I find I can drive the CZ 85 Combat slightly faster than the Shadow when shooting IDPA. For IPSC I prefer the Shadow. Both guns are stupid accurate and will out shoot most shooters IMHO. Both benefit from lighter mainsprings which are inexpensive and easily replaced.
With a lower bore axis the CZ line does have some advantages over the Sig, though this is very much shooter dependent. Shooters with less ability will likely not see much difference in their scoring due to the bore axis difference -there are a few other things at play that effect scores as well.
All the guns mentioned in your post are dead nuts reliable. They all go bang when the trigger is pulled and a cartridge is in the chamber.
You won't be selling the gun due to wearing any of them out.
Pick one, practice lots and enjoy your first handgun. You likely will never sell it as it is the first but it won't be the last.....
Take Care
Bob
christofer
Member
- Location
- kamloops BC
my vote....CZ shadow. If you are on a real tight budget even look at the 75B
Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys, I have read them all carefully.
As I suspected, there is nothing wrong with the slide on the CZ. If I like it when I try one, it will be very high on my list. I like the price as well, compared to the Sig.
I much preferred shooting the Sig 226 to the Beretta 92FS. So much so that I would pay the extra $250 for the Sig if those were my only 2 options, but they aren't
I really wanted to like the Beretta, it looks good, and its priced well but it just didn't feel right to me after shooting the Sig.
I didn't say what kind of competition I wanted to get into because I don't really know what's out there. My thinking was that it must eventually get boring shooting at the same target hundreds of times, so chances are I will want to get involved with something different. I have watched Youtube videos on IPSC and IDPA and they looked similar to me, progressing through a course, and I'm guessing you're judged on your time and accuracy? What other types of competitions are there? I just want whatever gun I buy to not hold me back if I want to get into something like that, because I won't be able to afford multiple guns for a while.
I should also mention I do not have my PAL/RPAL yet but will be taking the test on May 15th. I've read both CFSC manuals and done hundreds of practice questions though. The reason I am looking so seriously is because TSE will sell you a gun without your RPAL, but they store it there for you and supervise you whenever you want to use it.
So, I think the next logical step would be to compare the CZ Shadow or 85 to the Sig and buy whatever feels best out of those two.
If there is anything else anyone thinks of, I am all ears, and thanks again for all the thoughtful responses.
PS: On a sort of unrelated note, when I was at the range last time, someone was shooting some sort of hand cannon beside me, I assume a .44 Magnum or similar...how do you guys get used to the massive noise & pressure wave that kind of gun creates while you are trying to concentrate on your own shooting? I literally flinched every single time he shot.
Mark
As I suspected, there is nothing wrong with the slide on the CZ. If I like it when I try one, it will be very high on my list. I like the price as well, compared to the Sig.
I much preferred shooting the Sig 226 to the Beretta 92FS. So much so that I would pay the extra $250 for the Sig if those were my only 2 options, but they aren't
I really wanted to like the Beretta, it looks good, and its priced well but it just didn't feel right to me after shooting the Sig.I didn't say what kind of competition I wanted to get into because I don't really know what's out there. My thinking was that it must eventually get boring shooting at the same target hundreds of times, so chances are I will want to get involved with something different. I have watched Youtube videos on IPSC and IDPA and they looked similar to me, progressing through a course, and I'm guessing you're judged on your time and accuracy? What other types of competitions are there? I just want whatever gun I buy to not hold me back if I want to get into something like that, because I won't be able to afford multiple guns for a while.
I should also mention I do not have my PAL/RPAL yet but will be taking the test on May 15th. I've read both CFSC manuals and done hundreds of practice questions though
. The reason I am looking so seriously is because TSE will sell you a gun without your RPAL, but they store it there for you and supervise you whenever you want to use it. So, I think the next logical step would be to compare the CZ Shadow or 85 to the Sig and buy whatever feels best out of those two.
If there is anything else anyone thinks of, I am all ears, and thanks again for all the thoughtful responses.
PS: On a sort of unrelated note, when I was at the range last time, someone was shooting some sort of hand cannon beside me, I assume a .44 Magnum or similar...how do you guys get used to the massive noise & pressure wave that kind of gun creates while you are trying to concentrate on your own shooting? I literally flinched every single time he shot.
Mark
Choose eye protection that works with - rather than against - your ear muffs and does not ruin the seal around your ear. Indoors, a lot of people double-plug, I.E.: both earplugs and earmuffs, and that precaution mitigates that issue, to some extent. Quality muffs makes all of the difference, too. You will see Noise Reduction Ratings (NRR) ranging from about 16db all the way to 32db.
Beyond that, pro shooter Doug Koenig wears a modified motorcycle helmet while shooting some stages of The Masters, all to reduce the effect of muzzle blast.
i'm new and i've shot a few 44mag revolvers. they're not that bad once you've heard and felt the recoil 2-3 times. and the accuracy can be surprisingly good. actually, from 25 yards, i had much better shots with a 44mag revolver than i did with a beretta 92 or any 1911. sure, there's a loud and powerful BANG but by that time the bullet has already left the barrel so where it's GOING to hit is probably already established. i'm guessing flinching ahead of time (knowing that there is going to be a loud BANG) is the real issue.
oddly enough, i had much better results with a 6" S&W revolver (44mag) than a 10" Dan Wesson revolver (same 44mag). same day, same target, same ammo, shot within minutes of each other.
eh, i wouldn't commit to buying any particular firearm yet. i never thought i'd like a beretta but after having shot a few things, i like it more and more. besides, between now and the time that you get your RPAL, it'll likely be 2-3 months, so your likes and dislikes may change.
plus you gotta figure out which caliber you'd want to shoot, cuz most likely within a year you'll spend more on the ammo than the gun itself. the gun is a fixed cost, the ammo is a recurring cost. you can likely find the same gun chambered for 2-3 calibers, so don't commit to a SIG that's chambered in 9mm if you decide that the .40S&W makes more sense overall.
speaking for myself, my interests are primarily in IDPA, and then doing some IPSC as "other skills on the side that may make me a better overall shooter, but don't take away from my IDPA skills". everything i do in this 'sport' will relate to IDPA for me since that's my number one focus. and if / when i buy the firearm, i'll be much more concerned about it's suitability in IDPA than in IPSC, and if in IPSC it puts me in some oddball class then so be it - i don't intend on being competitive in IPSC but rather to learn skills and improve myself (and compete against my own self - i won't care if i'm up against people with laser sights and self-targeting ammunition, i'm only going home with my scorecard and comparing it to how i did last time).
what's your plan for this 'sport'?
oddly enough, i had much better results with a 6" S&W revolver (44mag) than a 10" Dan Wesson revolver (same 44mag). same day, same target, same ammo, shot within minutes of each other.
eh, i wouldn't commit to buying any particular firearm yet. i never thought i'd like a beretta but after having shot a few things, i like it more and more. besides, between now and the time that you get your RPAL, it'll likely be 2-3 months, so your likes and dislikes may change.
plus you gotta figure out which caliber you'd want to shoot, cuz most likely within a year you'll spend more on the ammo than the gun itself. the gun is a fixed cost, the ammo is a recurring cost. you can likely find the same gun chambered for 2-3 calibers, so don't commit to a SIG that's chambered in 9mm if you decide that the .40S&W makes more sense overall.
speaking for myself, my interests are primarily in IDPA, and then doing some IPSC as "other skills on the side that may make me a better overall shooter, but don't take away from my IDPA skills". everything i do in this 'sport' will relate to IDPA for me since that's my number one focus. and if / when i buy the firearm, i'll be much more concerned about it's suitability in IDPA than in IPSC, and if in IPSC it puts me in some oddball class then so be it - i don't intend on being competitive in IPSC but rather to learn skills and improve myself (and compete against my own self - i won't care if i'm up against people with laser sights and self-targeting ammunition, i'm only going home with my scorecard and comparing it to how i did last time).
what's your plan for this 'sport'?
That sounds like the best option, a good set of muffs along with some in-ear plugs as well. Are the custom made rubber plugs the best for in-ear? TSE gave me a coupon for some with my membership.
I have shot a .44 Magnum once before, and it was much better because I knew when it was going to fire. When the guy beside me is using one, it bothers me a lot more. Sounds like double ear-plugging would help though.
As for caliber, I thought 9mm would be best because it's the cheapest, and I don't need stopping power as I will only ever be shooting paper. I seem to go through a lot of bullets as well.
I don't know exactly what my plans are just yet, I don't even know the exact difference between IDPA and IPSC, the you tube videos looked very similar to me. I also don't know what else is out there besides IDPA and IPSC. Basically, I am guessing that simply shooting a target will get boring at some point, so I don't want any gun I choose to hold me back regardless of what direction I take in the sport.
Thanks again,
Mark
i ride a motorbike and even with the helmet, i wear earplugs. i don't bother with custom ones - i just get the cheap ones sold in packs of 20 or 100 at a drug store or Canadian Tire. they get dirty, you lose one, drop it on the ground, etc. better to have cheap disposable ones. you can usually wear the foam disposable ones 2-5 times before they get too grungy to use, so you toss 'em and grab a fresh pair.
plus, who knows - maybe you even have friends!!! and if you wanna bring a friend along, you can toss them a pair.
standing beside someone else who is shooting a 44mag or other hand cannon? watch the target, tell yourself that you're looking to see how he's shooting and how good his placement is on the target. if you flinch, you won't notice which hole is the new one! force yourself to ignore the BOOM and watch for the hole to appear. you'll eventually be able to put the BOOM out of your mind even as you're looking right at it.
from what i can tell, IPSC is hitting targets as quickly as possible, and IDPA is nailing 'bad guy cardboards' and not being a target yourself as the cardboard shoots back.
ammo seems to be about the same whether it's 9mm or .40S&W, and a decent bit more for .45ACP. i'm just talking about the Wolf reloads that i've seen on here (one of the site sponsors)
http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_33_39
plus, who knows - maybe you even have friends!!! and if you wanna bring a friend along, you can toss them a pair.
standing beside someone else who is shooting a 44mag or other hand cannon? watch the target, tell yourself that you're looking to see how he's shooting and how good his placement is on the target. if you flinch, you won't notice which hole is the new one! force yourself to ignore the BOOM and watch for the hole to appear. you'll eventually be able to put the BOOM out of your mind even as you're looking right at it.
from what i can tell, IPSC is hitting targets as quickly as possible, and IDPA is nailing 'bad guy cardboards' and not being a target yourself as the cardboard shoots back.
ammo seems to be about the same whether it's 9mm or .40S&W, and a decent bit more for .45ACP. i'm just talking about the Wolf reloads that i've seen on here (one of the site sponsors)
http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_33_39
Hi Mark,
You're going through the same "rite of passage" all of us go through once you get your restricted PAL and "gun feeva" sets in, lol.
As for which gun you should start out with, I would have to agree that one of the CZ pistols is your best bet. That's what I started with and have never regretted it. They're easy to operate, reliable, very accurate, well-made and have less felt recoil than most other pistols in the same price range. I shoot IPSC and use my CZ "Shadow" 90% of the time.
I also own two Sigs (P226 9mm and P226 Elite .40 S&W/.357 Sig) and several other "higher end" pistols (e.g., STI Trojan 9mm, H&K P7 PSP, Para-Ordnance Limited .45 ACP, Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP) but still count the CZ as my favourite.
Good luck and good shooting!
I like your logic on the regular foam earplugs, the fewer things I need to worry about the better.
I also see that it is quite cheap ($229) for 1000 .40 wolf reloads. That seems to be roughly the same price as 9mm, but I don't see any 9mm Wolf reloads available. I won't bother asking which is better 9mm or .40 because I'm sure that has been discussed to death here, and I will do a search
Hi Mark,
You're going through the same "rite of passage" all of us go through once you get your restricted PAL and "gun feeva" sets in, lol.
As for which gun you should start out with, I would have to agree that one of the CZ pistols is your best bet. That's what I started with and have never regretted it. They're easy to operate, reliable, very accurate, well-made and have less felt recoil than most other pistols in the same price range. I shoot IPSC and use my CZ "Shadow" 90% of the time.
I also own two Sigs (P226 9mm and P226 Elite .40 S&W/.357 Sig) and several other "higher end" pistols (e.g., STI Trojan 9mm, H&K P7 PSP, Para-Ordnance Limited .45 ACP, Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP) but still count the CZ as my favourite.
Good luck and good shooting!
Well that is encouraging, I sure hope I like shooting the CZ because if it shoots as nice as it is to hold, the rest will fall into place and I'll have a good gun for any competitions in the future.
Thanks again,
Mark
kalashnikov
Regular
Adam Tyc and Matt Mink were sooo mistaken as well
I still wonder how they could get all the way to the top with those CZs?..
You forgot about Laetitia Daguenel, 3 times Europeen IPSC champion...and using a Cz Shadow
Scott Bear
Regular
- Location
- Prince George
Browning HP?
