SIG vs. HK vs. Beretta vs. GLOCK vs. Steyr vs. Walther

Here's a link to a video of me shooting the Steyr. The gun seems to have worked out its reliability problems over the last year or so. When it was new I got a number of stovepipes, a couple of "nose stuck on the ramp"-type failures, and some weird thing where the slide was stuck in the rear most position (behind where the slide lock would engage with the notch). I thought I had totally buggered up my gun when that happened, but it came loose by just bumping the slide forward and this has never happened to me again. I haven't had any problems with the gun in the the last 8 months or so, but then I haven't been running any more than 100 rounds per session with this gun in that time frame. You can see in the video that the casings tend to eject at about a 45 degree angle, rather than the straight sideways ideal that I think gun makers should be going for. Back when the gun was newer I had a few come straight back and hit me in the head. I haven't had that happen lately either. I don't know what was going on there. I don't think it was anything I was doing (limp wristing, etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjZx3v4Utnk
 
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ghostie said:
You can see in the video that the casings tend to eject at about a 45 degree angle, rather than the straight sideways ideal that I think gun makers should be going for. Back when the gun was newer I had a few come straight back and hit me in the head. I haven't had that happen lately either. I don't know what was going on there. I don't think it was anything I was doing (limp wristing, etc.).
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Case ejection looks pretty irregular in that video. A couple of cases go sideways like they should, the second last one goes straigh in your face, others eject at a 45 degree angle. Looks like you've got an extractor problem.
 
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Great review!

Ghostie,

My hat is off to you buddy...that is a phenomenal job you have done in reviewing these pistols, side by side. Excellent work. :)

I'm glad ilovepot offered to provide the ###ual favors...saves me doing it. :D
 
capp325 said:
Case ejection looks pretty irregular in that video. A couple of cases go sideways like they should, the second last one goes straigh in your face, others eject at a 45 degree angle. Looks like you've got an extractor problem.
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Yah, ejection is pretty weird with this gun. I have never had a fail-to-eject with this gun, but they do come out in strange different angles. I think it is a design issue rather than a component-failure or user-failure though. It's always been like that since it was brand new. As I mentioned above, if anything it has gotten better over time. What have other Steyr M users experienced?

The only other gun I have that has a similar issue is the Walther P22. It has the nasty habit of sending casing back over your right shoulder and occassionaly hitting you in the head, or even the protective glasses! I have stretched out the extractor spring on the P22 the way people suggest. This helps a bit, but it is still not perfect.

I can tell you that the Steyr GB pistol absolutely launches the spent casings, nowhere near the user (you can see a video of the GB if you look at my "More from this user" on Youtube), so perhaps trying to reinvent the wheel every time they come out with a pistol is not the best idea.
 
ghostie said:
Yah, ejection is pretty weird with this gun. I have never had a fail-to-eject with this gun, but they do come out in strange different angles. I think it is a design issue rather than a component-failure or user-failure though. It's always been like that since it was brand new. As I mentioned above, if anything it has gotten better over time. What have other Steyr M users experienced?
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Examine the extractor claw closely to make sure it's not chipped or dented. Verify that the ejector is not loose. Also, how is your extractor tension? Can you wiggle the extractor easily with your fingers?
 
What have other Steyr M users experienced?
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I used to have Steyr as well...at first the ejection was pretty erretic but got better over time. Factory ammo worked fine but I has some fte's with reloads (probably too week)
 
capp325 said:
Examine the extractor claw closely to make sure it's not chipped or dented. Verify that the ejector is not loose. Also, how is your extractor tension? Can you wiggle the extractor easily with your fingers?
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Here's a photo of it. It's not chipped or anything. The gun is in "as new" condition generally. Just a little wear on the blueing of the barrel. The tension on the extractor is quite stiff. The design of the extractor is very similar to a GLOCK, and the tension is the same (unlike the Steyr GB which is a top-mounted extractor, where you can easily push the extractor back with your finger, but it works a lot better).

This photo shows what I think may be the culprit... that cone shaped thing that sits on the breechface. No other gun I own has anything like this. It's part of a loaded chamber indicator system. When a round is chambered, that cone thing is depressed into the breech face and a little indicator pops up on the back of the gun. The cone is located above the firing pin hole (other side from the extractor) but it might be having some effect on extraction. I can't think of anything else that it might be. Most of this part of the gun is just like a GLOCK, which don't have this issue.

steyr1.jpg
 
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Here are some targets from the P99 from yesterday (Sept. 1). This should give you an idea of the accuracy of the gun compared to the other guns in this thread. I find the gun to be reasonably accurate shooting offhand, but it has the distinct tendancy to shoot high for me. The 2 5/8 inch group below is about the best I can shoot this gun (in terms of grouping the shots on the bullseye, even though another group isan 1/8 of an inch smaller). I would have very little expectation of being able to get down into sub two inch groups with this gun. Having said that, like the Steyr and the GLOCK, the Walther is plenty accurate for the purpose it was designed for.

p99target1.jpg

p99target2.jpg

p99target3.jpg
 
ghostie said:
Yah, ejection is pretty weird with this gun. I have never had a fail-to-eject with this gun, but they do come out in strange different angles. I think it is a design issue rather than a component-failure or user-failure though. It's always been like that since it was brand new. As I mentioned above, if anything it has gotten better over time. What have other Steyr M users experienced?

The only other gun I have that has a similar issue is the Walther P22. It has the nasty habit of sending casing back over your right shoulder and occassionaly hitting you in the head, or even the protective glasses! I have stretched out the extractor spring on the P22 the way people suggest. This helps a bit, but it is still not perfect.

I can tell you that the Steyr GB pistol absolutely launches the spent casings, nowhere near the user (you can see a video of the GB if you look at my "More from this user" on Youtube), so perhaps trying to reinvent the wheel every time they come out with a pistol is not the best idea.
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Interesting that you talk about casings coming back over your shoulder or hitting you in the face. My Glock 17 frequently kicks the casings back into my forehead or my glasses, or up high enough that they land on top of my head. Sometimes they eject to the right-rear, but quite often I get hit by the casings. Do other folks notice this with their G17s?
 
redhead said:
Interesting that you talk about casings coming back over your shoulder or hitting you in the face. My Glock 17 frequently kicks the casings back into my forehead or my glasses, or up high enough that they land on top of my head. Sometimes they eject to the right-rear, but quite often I get hit by the casings. Do other folks notice this with their G17s?
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I do remember getting a few weird ones with my GLOCK, but not too much. I only take my GLOCK out about once a month now, but I'm planning to take it with me to the range next weekend and put together some targets to post here. I can take a video of the casings being ejected. Video seems to be the best way to see what is happening.
 
Excellent review but I agree with another member here, I own a 92FS and have never had a fail to fire or feed. It is a heavy gun though and it takes a certain type of hand to like it. I get a lot of people saying how they never like the Beretta or they absolutely love it, it seems to go either way and there isn't much middle ground.

Excellent analysis tho!

Vote for sticky on this thread : )
 
I have a feeling when the new HK comes out (the P30-L), it may make things more competitive in this comparison. The P30-L, it is basically an HK USP, with an ergonimic going over. Changeable, removeable side and rear grip panels, and slightly lighter/slimmer slide with slighty lower bore height, and rear decocker, low profile novak style sights, better mag well opening.
 
P99 throws brass far away and never near your face, unlike my previous guns which would hit you in the face. The accuracy is excellent also for me. I am really impressed with the walther P99
 
Here are some GLOCK 17 targets from this past weekend (September 9). After shooting mostly USP and SIG this year, I forgot how much more challenging a stock GLOCK is to shoot accurately (for me anyway... I don't discount the possibility that you might be a crack shot with yours).

This is an example of about the best I can shoot a stock GLOCk 17:
Gt1.jpg


Like the P99, I seem to have a definite tendancy to shoot the GLOCK high. These following sets of targets are probably more representative of how I can shoot my GLOCK vs. the other guns. It's not particularly pretty if you ask me. The stock GLOCK is plenty accurate for the defensive applications it was designed for, but it ain't no target gun. This first one is pretty decent. It's really two 2 5/8 inch groups, with one shot that we'll call "shooter error".
Gt2.jpg


This next one is a bit worse. On the top target, one shot was just barely off the paper (high) so there are only 9 hits on that target.
Gt3.jpg


This one is also showing my tendacy to go high with this gun, so much so that I screwed up the pen marks when I was measuring the distances. I made a mental note about getting that one high one into the target above where I was shooting when I was taking these shots.
Gt4.jpg


Overall, having posted all these targets, I find that I am shooting the GLOCK the worst of all the gun in my review. I thought I might be the worst with the Steyr, but nope, it's the GLOCK. I shoot my SIG the best. When I get the new sights and match trigger on my USP I'll let you know if it gives the SIG a run for its money with me doing the shooting.

Just as another point of comparison, this is a target I shot fairly recently with a G19 with a Bar-Sto barrel. It's 2 inch centre to centre on 10 shots, and this was I think the first or second mag I ever shot through the gun (which belongs to CGN member "TRON" btw), which is better than I could do in about 100 rounds of trying with a stock G17, having owned the G17 for about 2 years. This is telling me that the tighter fitting aftermarket barrel really does make a big difference. The hole on the right side (partially under the ruler) is a stray from another point of aim.
G19group2.jpg
 
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Here are some pics (from video) of the P229R "in action":
EricaP2291.jpg

EricaP2292.jpg

EricaP2293.jpg

EricaP2294.jpg

EricaP2295.jpg

EricaP2296.jpg

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EricaP2298.jpg

EricaP2299.jpg


This is a target that was shot with the SIG at 15 metres. It's about 2 and 1/2 inch centre to centre. Awesome little gun these SIGS.
S2-1.jpg


We were also shooting 5 shot groups into these blank 3 inch circles at 10 metres. These are two of the better ones, both not much over an inch, but in all honesty just about every group shot with this SIG is respectable. It sits so nicely and firmly in your hand, the bullets just seem to find what you are pointing at even if you know you've moved the gun a bit. The hole in the lower left of the lower circle is from the staple that was holding the paper up. Although 4 of 5 impacts are touching in the lower group, I would call the upper group the better one. I don't really care if shots are touching, that is just for benchrest. I like to see the shots grouped nicely right in the middle of what you are going for.
S3-1.jpg
 
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