Skilled pistoleer?

bluesclues

bluesclues

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I am looking to see what my fellow CGN'ers consider to be the necessary skills to be considered "truly skilled" with a pistol.

A little background: Have you ever gone to the range or a match and observed someone shooting that you believed to be truly skilled with a pistol? Or, have you ever wanted to take a handgun course because you felt that the instructor was truly skilled with a pistol and knew that he/she could certainly teach you something?

What qualities did this "truly skilled" individual possess that impressed you so?

Is there a test or tangible benchmark that you consider to be an all around test of a pistol shooters skills?

Lastly, if you were making a qualification stage(s) to seperate those that can plink all day and manage to not shoot themselves and those that are skilled, what type(s) of drills would you incorporate into your test criteria?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
 
A handgun is a self defence tool. A skilled "pistoleer" will have a tool that he can hit his assailant at 10 to 7 yards or less under duress.
He or she will also have a developed eye for what could be a dangerous situation and prepare accordingly.
I would place danger recognition above all other skills.
 
Interesting question. There are a few skills that I am particularly interested in obtaining but nobody I have seen so far possess or teach those.

A "skilled pistoleer" in my opinion would be the one who can deploy pistol fast and place multiple scoring shots to moving objects at 10-15 m distances while himself all the while avoiding line of aim of his "targets". Scoring shots from hip, from under armpit, from monkey three-legged stance etc. Basically all "point-shooting" or "intuitive shooting" stuff. Sound shots, shooting in a dark to muzzle flash comes to mind. Bullseye shooting too. Running targets at 20 yards - very interesting exercise by the way. I just finished reading Potapov's book "SMERSH shooting practices" (in russian of course) - that works like a cold shower. I thought I know how to shoot untill I read that book.
 
I have had the honor of watching someone that I thought was skilled.
He was shooting a 40 cal STI EDGE at a target 12 yards away, 10 rounds slow fire and all but 3 were in the same ragged hole.
Another talented shooter is Todd Jarrett; watch how fast he can shoot steel, wow.

Another form of a true skill is watching some one field strip a 1911 apart to the firing pin, oil it, then reassemble it, reload 4 mags and be ready to shoot his next turn in less than 10 minutes. Didn’t look like his first time.

A good test/training is the equivalent of a Black Badge course.
 
I was surprised when I read about the training program used by Seal Team Six - they used more practise ammo than the entire Marine Corps. I guess that a skilled pistoleer is someone who can hit a relatively small target(say about 4 inches), with either or both hands, while both the shooter and the target are moving. The ability to do this out to 25 yards, in the minimum possible time, under stress, and the ability to do it every single time.
 
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I like the standard test an El Presidente in 10 sec. All in the A zone. Off course someone will write in and say the Russians can do this. While shooting through their legs and bouncing the bullets off their left nut. I think one of our own Gunnutz Mr Harrision at a match in Trenton. Shot an El Presidente,all in the A zone in 6 sec . That is getting God like. Ray.
 
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I like the standard test an El Presidente in 10 sec. All in the A zone. Off course someone will write in and say the Russians can do this. While shooting through their legs and bouncing the bullets off their left nut. I think one of our own Gunnutz Mr Harrision at a match in Trenton. Shot an El Presidente,all in the A zone in 6 sec . That is getting God like. Ray.
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ipsc at trenton lololololol you must be jokeing...
 
The only problem with using the 'El Prez' as a measure is that real targets are rather more lively and hostile, and rarely ever stand in straight rows. I usually reserve words like 'pistoleer' for guys who get it done in the real world - best example would be Jim Cirillo, definitely a pistoleer. Sad that he has passed. Another would be Bill Jordan.
 
A good shot is one who can shoot as well as his pistol will shoot, but a skilled pistoleer to my way of thinking is an individual who not only is a superb shot, but one who is also well versed in the tactics of the pistol, and who can put that knowledge to work in the real world.
 
ian_in_vic said:
I was surprised when I read about the training program used by Seal Team Six - they used more practise ammo than the entire Marine Corps. I guess that a skilled pistoleer is someone who can hit a relatively small target(say about 4 inches), with either or both hands, while both the shooter and the target are moving. The ability to do this out to 25 yards, in the minimum possible time, under stress, and the ability to do it every single time.
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they do a little thing called recon by fire, which could be termed almost wasteful- it's rounds on target that count, not rounds expended- as far as the other thing is concerned, there's a dicipline called bulls-eye in this game which tends to produce superior "pistoleers"
 
Noun 1. pistoleer - someone armed with a pistol (especially a soldier so armed)

This word has everything to do with combat and little to do with shooting games. I am not sure if such an animal even exists. I am pretty sure that even the skilled Bill Jordan, probably one of the more accomplished six gun shooters of this century, would have probalbly used a rifle during his time WW2. Might be wrong on this as he was a commissioned officer and a handgun is considered a badge of office.
 
t-star said:
they do a little thing called recon by fire, which could be termed almost wasteful- it's rounds on target that count, not rounds expended- as far as the other thing is concerned, there's a dicipline called bulls-eye in this game which tends to produce superior "pistoleers"
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The ammo expenditure being referred to was PRACTICE ammo. This was an indication of the amount of live pistol practice done by the SEAL team. Just like the high number of rounds expended during practice by top tier competitors in the pistol game...be it IPSC, IDPA, or Bullseye. I don't think that it would surprise anyone here that shooting a lot is a good way to shoot well.

Rounds expended in practice tend to result in rounds being on target during operations. This is not to say that quantity completely replaces quality in training, but I would imagine that the SEALS are doing quality training :)
 
Here are some of my thoughts and conclusions:

A shooter who can effectively put rounds on target inside of the 80% rule.

This is my conclusion drawn from multiple influences including (but limited to) after action reports from police and my experiences in the military. Also, including shooting gamers and recreational plinkers.

The "percentages" that I have come up with are what I consider to be the natural stressers that seperate the competent from the truly skilled.

10% TIME
10% DISTANCE
10% LIGHTING / ENVIROMENTAL CONDITIONS
10% NOISE
20% SITUATIONAL AWARENESS / MENTAL PREPAREDNESS
20% IA's AND STOPAGES
20% KNOWING / UNDERSTANDING WHEN TO SHOOT

If a shooter can effectively put the right amount of rounds on target within 80% the stresses listed above with an acceptable amount of intended accuracy associated within a scenario, I would consider this shooter to be truly skilled.

I guess this would proclude the vast majority of hobby shooters... not my intention, just kinda worked out that way. As, not even gaming can adequately assemble all of these unknowns into a stage.

What say you? Can a gamer or recreational shooter be truly skilled?
 
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bluesclues said:
10% TIME
10% DISTANCE
10% LIGHTING / ENVIROMENTAL CONDITIONS
10% NOISE
20% SITUATIONAL AWARENESS / MENTAL PREPAREDNESS
20% IA's AND STOPAGES
20% KNOWING / UNDERSTANDING WHEN TO SHOOT
Click to expand...


Sounds like you just described an IPSC match
I'm glad someone remembers Trenton...lol...that was a long time ago...I honestly didn't think a 6 second run would get it done on that event, to be honest I was happier winning the steel stage against Jojo and some of the other top guys with a borrowed gun....btw thanks again IPSIK :D

Of all the top guys I've had the honor of shooting with, I think the most impressive thing I ever saw was watching Bryan Marino at Sharon one day on the 50yd pistol range. He had a selection of pistols in front of him, a racegun, a stock .45, a single action revolver (SAA) a double action revolver and I think a .22 pistol. He was shooting at a 50 plate and no matter which one he picked up or how he shot, left hand, right hand, two hands, he hit that damned plate every time. He just didn't miss and it didn't matter what or how he shot...that's impressive.
 
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For me, anybody who can shoot above 1150/1200 on PPC is shooting well.
My "goal" is to get a perfect score on 1200 PPC. I think it can be done with
a stock/production semi-auto (Sig 226 or CZ SP-01)

Guys who shoot 1" groups from 7 yards don't impress me anymore.
Consistent 4" groups from 50 yards, that is something.
 
If you want to see “Pistoleers” go to an IPSC provincials or better yet the Canadian Nationals for IPSC. The top shooters in each of the divisions will absolutely amaze you. These are guys/girls who have progressed (many thousands of rounds) beyond the “average” person with a pistol on a target range. These people are relying on subconscious skill sets. It is kind of like driving as car. You don’t think about where your hand and feet are in relation to one another, your brain subconsciously coordinates all of them to work in unison. These shooters do that with a pistol! You want to see real pistol shooters, go to a top IPSC (IDPA seems to be catching on as well) match. You will be amazed what can be done with a pistol!
 
I think Bill Jordan lost the title of pistoleer after he shot his partner in the gut. He was showing how fast he was. Bryan Marino shure was a good shooter i dont think you were to bad ether PH.
 
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