sks trigger job
- Thread starter cheeko
- Start date
As for the springs I'm waiting for my local gun shop to provide them but I'm not that worried , It's great as it is .
As for using valve lapping paste on the hammer/sear engagement surfaces I feel this is not a good idea , it may smooth the feel a bit but it will give the rifle more negative engagement - not what you want if you plan on eliminating creep .
IMO all SKS rifles have negative engagement as delivered and with wear this only gets worse . If you leave the rifle alone this is ok . If you plan on doing what Kivaari does it has to be neutral or positive ( with preference to the positive ) . Valve lapping paste is good for lapping the rails the sear slide on , but not the engagement surface or the sear/hammer .
If you have limited mechanical abilities the money Kivaari is asking is pretty cheap at todays exchange rate and I would highly recomend that you don't touch your trigger and get him to do it . That said , if you are a can do kinda guy and you do things well , then take a look at what you can do with it . just study the info you can get and think about it .
Just my 2 cents worth - Rick
As for using valve lapping paste on the hammer/sear engagement surfaces I feel this is not a good idea , it may smooth the feel a bit but it will give the rifle more negative engagement - not what you want if you plan on eliminating creep .
IMO all SKS rifles have negative engagement as delivered and with wear this only gets worse . If you leave the rifle alone this is ok . If you plan on doing what Kivaari does it has to be neutral or positive ( with preference to the positive ) . Valve lapping paste is good for lapping the rails the sear slide on , but not the engagement surface or the sear/hammer .
If you have limited mechanical abilities the money Kivaari is asking is pretty cheap at todays exchange rate and I would highly recomend that you don't touch your trigger and get him to do it . That said , if you are a can do kinda guy and you do things well , then take a look at what you can do with it . just study the info you can get and think about it .
Just my 2 cents worth - Rick
Just finished my lousy trigger job on SKS….I did trigger job on rimfire before. So I thought I can handle it easily. Grind the top corner of the sear down, get about 2 lb pull. Went to range….then realize there is a reason why the trigger is so heavy. The shock from the semi-auto action will fire the next round!.....that left me with a machine-gun in hands….another two days bring everything back.
Michealsabre , you have one of two problems happening .
1) you are experiencing " slam fire " first hand . This is when the firing pin gets stuck in the bolt due to a number of reasons . Excesive oil / grease , incorrect assembly and or lack of cleaning can lead to this .
or , more likely
2) You never read and understood Kivaari's info . SKS rifles have negative engagement , with wear it gets worse , if you eliminate the creep without changing the rifle to positive engagement this is what will happen .
Not to rag but this is why nobody wants to talk about triggers and everyone says to send it to a pro . When done wrong you create a very dangerous rifle . I'm not condemning you but how far did you think it through ? Given the info available on two web sites mentioned earlier and if you draw a simple picture of how all these parts relate plus what I posted earlier this process should have either been clear or warning bells should have gone off in your head not to do it . Someone could get hurt , it might even be you and I don't want to see that happen to anyone .
I put 40 rounds through mine today and I gotta tell you its the second best thing I've done to the SKS ( replaced the stock is first -IMO ) . I'm borrowing a stock trigger group and I'll do a 50 yard side by side comparison with three different types of ammo and I'll post the results of what I find .
Thanks - Rick
1) you are experiencing " slam fire " first hand . This is when the firing pin gets stuck in the bolt due to a number of reasons . Excesive oil / grease , incorrect assembly and or lack of cleaning can lead to this .
or , more likely
2) You never read and understood Kivaari's info . SKS rifles have negative engagement , with wear it gets worse , if you eliminate the creep without changing the rifle to positive engagement this is what will happen .
Not to rag but this is why nobody wants to talk about triggers and everyone says to send it to a pro . When done wrong you create a very dangerous rifle . I'm not condemning you but how far did you think it through ? Given the info available on two web sites mentioned earlier and if you draw a simple picture of how all these parts relate plus what I posted earlier this process should have either been clear or warning bells should have gone off in your head not to do it . Someone could get hurt , it might even be you and I don't want to see that happen to anyone .
I put 40 rounds through mine today and I gotta tell you its the second best thing I've done to the SKS ( replaced the stock is first -IMO ) . I'm borrowing a stock trigger group and I'll do a 50 yard side by side comparison with three different types of ammo and I'll post the results of what I find .
Thanks - Rick
rick stewart said:
Yep, you are right, safety comes first.
It's a mistake that I didn't consider the nature of semi-auto. What I got after the mod is a perfect single shoot. However, the shoke will trigger the second round. It's OK now after I increase the engagement of the sear. I will suggest everybody get a new sear before start modifing it....
Thanks for the info Rick,I have completed the first stage of my trigger work and I am pretty happy so far. I was able to cure the negative engagement problem and get things to a neutral/very slightly positive state.
I also reduced the engagement a touch. I went thru my assortment of springs and replaced the sear/mag release spring with a lighter one. I also polished the rail and groove mating surfaces on the sear block with 600 wet or dry wrapped around a small flat needle file to a mirror like finish. End result was a reduction from 9.5 lbs of gravel like pull to 4 lbs with no noticeable creep . One other thing I did was to remove 4 coils worth of length from the hammer spring. I am itching to get out and range test it before I go further, but that probably won't happen until the weekend. I also bedded the action so now the metalwork is tight in the stock. I would like to get a slightly better pull but I figure a little at a time is better than f'ing things up!! When I have the best pull I feel comfortable with I will install an overtravel stop. I'll let you know when I have results.Cheers
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rollingrock
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- Port Moody, BC
SKS doesn't need no trigger job. The trigger might be stiff when it's new. But that' why you need to break it in by putting a few hundred rounds through it and oiling it properly.
Well now you know what full auto feels like! This is why I hold on to the rifle like it just might go off. I pull the butt into my leg and hang on! I see guys with the rifle on a stand, one hand on the guard and letting the bolt go while looking thru the scope.michaelsabre said:
Every body has said the same thing in these forums. DON't f##k with the slope of the sear.
A lot of difference can be had with the new spring kit. Checking the rails and the track on the sides of the sear and smoothing these areas will help. Make sure the whole trigger housing isn't bent by making sure the sear travels freely all the way to the end. Check to see if the mag latch/ sear spring pin area isn't pinched. Smoothing the contact points on the sides of the hammer and the bottom will help. Just don't change the angle on the face of the sear, and check the work done to see if you have altered anything which shouldn't happen if this is all you do. If the hammer drops by banging it on the floor, fix. I did my buffing with a dremel and a buffing wheel with jewellers rouge so the amount removed was negligible.
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emmab said:
Well, the slope of the sear can be modified.....the only problem is there is not easy way to bring back if you over grind it. It's not like a shim job....
It's not so hard to fire a full-auto as long as you put only two round into your gun....
)Anyhow, it's a lot of fun to challenge a SKS trigger job....
Hmmm , this is turning into an intresting tread , I love it
My comments :
1) Rolling rock , I had about 2500 rounds through my rifle before I messed with the trigger , never thought it had a lousy trigger until I did a bunch of reading on here and surplus rifle , then I played with my rifle and couldn't believe how lousy it felt . From new to when I altered it it never felt like it changed , I did .
2) Emmab , I'm no gunsmith and have very limited experience with guns but I learn pretty fast and have messed with everything mechanical since as long as I can remember . It fails me to think of a way to turn the SKS into a positive engagement and eliminate creep without altering the angles on the sear / hammer interface . Mine didn't have to be changed much but they do have to be altered if your rifle has negative engegement . As I said earlier , IMO all SKS have negative engagement , its a byproduct of the design . With wear they'll have worse negative engagement .
As far as improving the rifle , my trigger feels way better now , but in the intrest of dismissing the B.S. about this . This Sunday afternoon , weather permitting , I'm taking my rifle to the range with my altered trigger group and a stock trigger group . I've got three different types of ammo , Silver box Norinco ( copper coloured cartridge ) , Norinco green& white box ( lead tip commerial round ) and eastern block corrosive . I'll set different targets at the same 50 yard range and do 5 round groups of each with each trigger . I'm Joe Average as a shooter so I'm intrested to see my real world results . Hopefully I can get a couple of other SKS rifles there and do a back to back slug out with multiple shooters , now that would be intresting .
My comments :
1) Rolling rock , I had about 2500 rounds through my rifle before I messed with the trigger , never thought it had a lousy trigger until I did a bunch of reading on here and surplus rifle , then I played with my rifle and couldn't believe how lousy it felt . From new to when I altered it it never felt like it changed , I did .
2) Emmab , I'm no gunsmith and have very limited experience with guns but I learn pretty fast and have messed with everything mechanical since as long as I can remember . It fails me to think of a way to turn the SKS into a positive engagement and eliminate creep without altering the angles on the sear / hammer interface . Mine didn't have to be changed much but they do have to be altered if your rifle has negative engegement . As I said earlier , IMO all SKS have negative engagement , its a byproduct of the design . With wear they'll have worse negative engagement .
As far as improving the rifle , my trigger feels way better now , but in the intrest of dismissing the B.S. about this . This Sunday afternoon , weather permitting , I'm taking my rifle to the range with my altered trigger group and a stock trigger group . I've got three different types of ammo , Silver box Norinco ( copper coloured cartridge ) , Norinco green& white box ( lead tip commerial round ) and eastern block corrosive . I'll set different targets at the same 50 yard range and do 5 round groups of each with each trigger . I'm Joe Average as a shooter so I'm intrested to see my real world results . Hopefully I can get a couple of other SKS rifles there and do a back to back slug out with multiple shooters , now that would be intresting .
rick stewart said:Hmmm , this is turning into an intresting tread , I love it
My comments :
1) Rolling rock , I had about 2500 rounds through my rifle before I messed with the trigger , never thought it had a lousy trigger until I did a bunch of reading on here and surplus rifle , then I played with my rifle and couldn't believe how lousy it felt . From new to when I altered it it never felt like it changed , I did .
2) Emmab , I'm no gunsmith and have very limited experience with guns but I learn pretty fast and have messed with everything mechanical since as long as I can remember . It fails me to think of a way to turn the SKS into a positive engagement and eliminate creep without altering the angles on the sear / hammer interface . Mine didn't have to be changed much but they do have to be altered if your rifle has negative engegement . As I said earlier , IMO all SKS have negative engagement , its a byproduct of the design . With wear they'll have worse negative engagement .
As far as improving the rifle , my trigger feels way better now , but in the intrest of dismissing the B.S. about this . This Sunday afternoon , weather permitting , I'm taking my rifle to the range with my altered trigger group and a stock trigger group . I've got three different types of ammo , Silver box Norinco ( copper coloured cartridge ) , Norinco green& white box ( lead tip commerial round ) and eastern block corrosive . I'll set different targets at the same 50 yard range and do 5 round groups of each with each trigger . I'm Joe Average as a shooter so I'm intrested to see my real world results . Hopefully I can get a couple of other SKS rifles there and do a back to back slug out with multiple shooters , now that would be intresting .
That's my question too...how to change the engagement without filing or grinding the sear?
In order to go from negative to positive relationship between the sear and hammer on must alter one or both of the parts. IMO it is far easier deal with the sear rather than the hammer. But definitely stay away from the bench grinder and the file, use a stone. I started with a rather soft medium grade carborundum stone then switched to a black ceramic Brownells stone (medium fine) and finished off with a Brownells white ceramic stone (fine). As previously stated draw a picture of the hammer and sear showing how they inter-relate and it should be obvious what needs to be done, if you are not sure leave it alone.
ckid , you got it figured out and are bang on .
But ,
On my gun , and I only looked really closely at my gun ( I'll be checking out another stock trigger this weekend ) , the hammer engagement surface was not flat but worn a little round . A little carefull stoning on the hammer restored it to flat and I put a small angle to it . This angle , when cocked ( with the modified sear ) will create a set of angles on the sear hammer interface that requires the hammer to run uphill as the trigger is depressed ( this gives the positive engagement that is desired , don't go to extreme , the greater positive engagement you have creates a greater trigger pull because you are compressing the hammer spring as you pull the trigger . )
Once I was happy with the engagement angles , then I shortened the sear to reduce creep . Be very carefull . Doing this wrong will make a very dangerous gun . I've banged my gun around very hard and it works perfectly , I don't believe I made it any worse safety wise and I think its a better gun now .
I have very little first stage pull and a clean break , I don't know the weight yet but after I get my Wolff springs I'll test that too .
To shorten the primary trigger pull I had to put a small weld on the top of the trigger where it hits the housing and then carefully shape and size to get it right where I wanted it ( and then blue the trigger ) . I felt this was the most difficult step of all .
Anyway , weather permitting , I've got another stock trigger group and at least one other rifle/shooter ( SKS-D ) confirmed for Sunday .
But ,
On my gun , and I only looked really closely at my gun ( I'll be checking out another stock trigger this weekend ) , the hammer engagement surface was not flat but worn a little round . A little carefull stoning on the hammer restored it to flat and I put a small angle to it . This angle , when cocked ( with the modified sear ) will create a set of angles on the sear hammer interface that requires the hammer to run uphill as the trigger is depressed ( this gives the positive engagement that is desired , don't go to extreme , the greater positive engagement you have creates a greater trigger pull because you are compressing the hammer spring as you pull the trigger . )
Once I was happy with the engagement angles , then I shortened the sear to reduce creep . Be very carefull . Doing this wrong will make a very dangerous gun . I've banged my gun around very hard and it works perfectly , I don't believe I made it any worse safety wise and I think its a better gun now .
I have very little first stage pull and a clean break , I don't know the weight yet but after I get my Wolff springs I'll test that too .
To shorten the primary trigger pull I had to put a small weld on the top of the trigger where it hits the housing and then carefully shape and size to get it right where I wanted it ( and then blue the trigger ) . I felt this was the most difficult step of all .
Anyway , weather permitting , I've got another stock trigger group and at least one other rifle/shooter ( SKS-D ) confirmed for Sunday .
Rick,
I did have the same issue with the hammer and addressed it in the manner you did, I just did not want to muddy the water here as it was minor compared to the sear. I addressed the sear length with a chamfer leaving just under 1/16" of sear engagement remaining. I think I can further reduce this but want to give it an extensive trial before proceeding (baby steps). I don't have my trigger group in front of me now so I can't visualize where to place the weld on the trigger to shorten the primary pull. Are you talking about placing the weld so it contacts the front of the hole the trigger passes thru in the trigger guard assembly? I still have to find a small set screw and matching tap to put the overtravel screw in the back of the trigger guard. Do you have any idea on the price of the Wolf kit (CDN$)?
I did have the same issue with the hammer and addressed it in the manner you did, I just did not want to muddy the water here as it was minor compared to the sear. I addressed the sear length with a chamfer leaving just under 1/16" of sear engagement remaining. I think I can further reduce this but want to give it an extensive trial before proceeding (baby steps). I don't have my trigger group in front of me now so I can't visualize where to place the weld on the trigger to shorten the primary pull. Are you talking about placing the weld so it contacts the front of the hole the trigger passes thru in the trigger guard assembly? I still have to find a small set screw and matching tap to put the overtravel screw in the back of the trigger guard. Do you have any idea on the price of the Wolf kit (CDN$)?
Never thought of a set screw . That would work .
Yes we're thinking in the same place regarding primary pull .
Did about the same amount as you , I didn't want to go to short either .
I wanted to see how it held up after removing what I did , I don't know how hard the steel is and don't want to find out the hard way . I'll inspect it after every use and notify this board if I see any change .
on the testing front , its down to the weather now .
Myself and two other shooters are confirmed . With three SKS rifles in various trim .
1) older Chinese SKS , with ATI Dragonov stock , Williams firesights and my screwed with trigger . Plus I have a stock trigger assm. as well .
2) newer Chinese SKS ( pinned barrel ) with folding stock , and
3) Chinese SKS-D , stock except it has Williams firesights .
I'm up to five different types of ammo , might even have six by Sunday .
1) Norinco silver box
2) Chinese comercial ammo - soft tip , green and white box ( old Lever supply )
3) Marstar eastern block ammo - green box corrosive on stripper clips .
4) Canada Ammo eastern block ammo , looks similar to Marstars
5) Winchester hunting rounds , brass case - I only have six left , but hey , it's one more group .
6) If I can pick it up I came across some small white box stuff . Not on stripper clips but steel case FMJ , if I get it I'll forward the info .
I figure a good comparison would be :
5 round groups from each rifle with each ammo from each shooter at 50-60 yards .
I'll take pictures of all results and record any problems or preferences and post the results .
I was thinking about bringing my M305 for sh#ts and giggles too
Yes we're thinking in the same place regarding primary pull .
Did about the same amount as you , I didn't want to go to short either .
I wanted to see how it held up after removing what I did , I don't know how hard the steel is and don't want to find out the hard way . I'll inspect it after every use and notify this board if I see any change .
on the testing front , its down to the weather now .
Myself and two other shooters are confirmed . With three SKS rifles in various trim .
1) older Chinese SKS , with ATI Dragonov stock , Williams firesights and my screwed with trigger . Plus I have a stock trigger assm. as well .
2) newer Chinese SKS ( pinned barrel ) with folding stock , and
3) Chinese SKS-D , stock except it has Williams firesights .
I'm up to five different types of ammo , might even have six by Sunday .
1) Norinco silver box
2) Chinese comercial ammo - soft tip , green and white box ( old Lever supply )
3) Marstar eastern block ammo - green box corrosive on stripper clips .
4) Canada Ammo eastern block ammo , looks similar to Marstars
5) Winchester hunting rounds , brass case - I only have six left , but hey , it's one more group .
6) If I can pick it up I came across some small white box stuff . Not on stripper clips but steel case FMJ , if I get it I'll forward the info .
I figure a good comparison would be :
5 round groups from each rifle with each ammo from each shooter at 50-60 yards .
I'll take pictures of all results and record any problems or preferences and post the results .
I was thinking about bringing my M305 for sh#ts and giggles too
Ckid,
When address the sear length, I would suggest you to stop at the "Good Enough" point. That's exactly where I screwed my sear job. It was good but I was greedy and want to reduce it a little more....then I overdo it....
BTW, the "overtravel screw in the back of the trigger guard", what's the benfit of that?
Thanks!
When address the sear length, I would suggest you to stop at the "Good Enough" point. That's exactly where I screwed my sear job. It was good but I was greedy and want to reduce it a little more....then I overdo it....
BTW, the "overtravel screw in the back of the trigger guard", what's the benfit of that?
Thanks!
The overtravel screw will stop the rearward travel of the trigger the instant the trigger "breaks". It provides a better feel and argueably prevents the gun from moving before the bullet leaves the barrel - hence greater accuracy.
Some people must be getting a good giggle out of this thread, us spending all this time and effort on a cheap chicom rifles!! But hey its all fun and I like to get the most out of every rifle/handgun I own.
Some people must be getting a good giggle out of this thread, us spending all this time and effort on a cheap chicom rifles!! But hey its all fun and I like to get the most out of every rifle/handgun I own.
