SL8: winchester whitebox vs PMC bronze

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grox6

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Managed to get some time on the firing line with my SL8 yesterday. I was trying to sight it in with the scope I added.


I brought two brands of ammo with me, winchester whitebox(55grains, FMJ) and PMC bronze(55grains, FMJ boat tail). Myself, my nephew, and my buddy rotated between the SL8, some pistols, and an M14s(I'll talk about the M14s in another post...).


At 50 yards, the whitebox was getting 3 to 4 inch groupings, the PMC was putting all 5 rounds into an inch. I was really surprised by how bad the winchester rounds performed.


Anyone else have the same experience with these two brands of ammo?


I also tried getting some groupings out to 100yards, but even with my spotting scope I could not make out the holes in the paper. (The targets I was using are mostly white with 9 little orange crosses). I wish I could have been able to see the holes in the paper from the bench rest, but with all the snow on the ground, the white paper and the white snow visible behind the holes in the paper made it nearly impossible to tell if I'd hit the paper at all.


During the target change, I found a couple of groupings on the 100yard paper that were OK(under 2 inches, but not the 1MOA that many people get out of their SL8's). Of course, some of the other groupings were pretty bad(ie. 5 inch with the PMC). My nephew is taking the credit for the tight groupings, and I'll let him keep the bragging rights as he typically schools me when it comes to rifle accuracy:)


Anyway, is my bad experience with the winchester whitebox stuff typical (relative to the PMC bronze)?
 
I had pretty much equal results with WWB and PMC ammo, but others have mentioned poorer accuracy with Winchester. Off the bipod at 100m both went under 2" on different occasions for me, though I'm hopeful that a nice day and some sandbags will result in ~1 MOA groups with one of these loads (I have quite a bit of it stockpiled).

If you have a chance you could also try some PMC 62gr, as it might be more accurate due to weight/twist/ballistic coefficient.
 
I have 'launched' the two above noted rounds out of my 700P (223) and Mini 14 the winnie white box is like throwing styrofoam in the wind, the PMC seems to be excellent stuff.........keep it quiet though or we will induce another shortage of 223;)
 
Wasn't impressed with any factory 55gn groups in my, thats why I reload 62 and 69gn.Still want to try something even heavier as I was getting .75MOA when all the planets were in line.
 
I have only put factory ammo through mine thus far and have had decent results with the Win 'USA' White Box 45 gr HPs (1.5" groups or better at 100 yards). I have not tried anything heavier than 55gr yet. The 55 gr FMJ's (Win & Fed) were definatley not all that great.
 
I tried Winchester white box through my swiss arms.... 5-6" at 100. The PMC was under 2" at 100. To tell you the truth, out of all the ammo I tested, the PMC did as well as the best match stuff (when sorted).

But that's why I reload. It's cheaper and I get 2X the accuracy (and improving) over the best factory loads I could get a hold of.

But don't be discouraged. Real life groups seems to be much different than internet groups. People seem to forget to mention on the internet that their 0.5" groups were the one best group they've ever shot, that group they shot was only 3 rounds.. or that was best 3 out of 10 rounds.... "7 fliers".

If you can consistantly bench 5 shots under 1.25-1.5" with an autoloader than you have a pretty accurate gun, and you've got nothing to be worried about.
 
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Remembered I had a couple of 100m targets shot with PMC ammo last fall/winter. First up is from the Tavor with a too low mounted scope and a cold breeze. Not great, but definitely minute of coyote from the elbows...

Tavor1stTarget.jpg




This one is from sighting in the SL8. Nice ~2" groups from the bipod...

SL8Groups.jpg



It's supposed to warm up later this week, so I'll try to get some groups with WWB to show any differences.
 
I have never seen such terrible groups! My old Steyer AUG would spit 1 inch at 100 meters. My M16 A 2 would do 2 inch with the same ammo! The federal ans Israeli stuff would do just as well!
Henry
Spray and pray does not work!
 
My experience with my SL8 is that it does not like any loads factory or handloads with lighter bullets 45-55 grain range due to the 1 in 7" twist. It especially does not shoot very well with the cheap 55 grain FMJ ammo of any brand producing groups any where from 2 to 4" at 100 yards. It will shoot MOA with handloads using bullets of 60 grains or heavier.:)
 
Hey Farmer Harv,

How do you like your Tavor? I've got a free spot in my safe that I was thinking of filling with a Tavor. Would you say that your SL8 is consistently more accurate than your Tavor? A fellow I was chatting with at the range was complaining about the Tavor trigger on the one he tried. Mind you, he was shooting a >$10k sniper rifle so his expectations may be a lot higher than yours or mine. Do you have any complaints about the trigger?


Hunter7, I've been doing a little more reading and I've come across a number of other tidbits that mention the 1 in 7 twist favoring heavier bullets. Bummer, looks like I'm going to have to buy more gear so I can start reloading .223. Oh well, the way I've been burning through ammo lately, I'm sure it'll pay itself off quickly...
 
hnachaj said:
I have never seen such terrible groups! My old Steyer AUG would spit 1 inch at 100 meters. My M16 A 2 would do 2 inch with the same ammo! The federal ans Israeli stuff would do just as well!
Henry
Spray and pray does not work!
Click to expand...


Thats pretty good for a millitary rifle with comercial ammo...... lemme guess your the sniper......
 
grox6 said:
Hey Farmer Harv,

How do you like your Tavor? I've got a free spot in my safe that I was thinking of filling with a Tavor. Would you say that your SL8 is consistently more accurate than your Tavor? A fellow I was chatting with at the range was complaining about the Tavor trigger on the one he tried. Mind you, he was shooting a >$10k sniper rifle so his expectations may be a lot higher than yours or mine. Do you have any complaints about the trigger?
Click to expand...

I really really like the Tavor, but I seem have a different set of standards than most people from what I've seen around here. As long as I can toss it in the truck/tractor/Rhino in a light case with no worries and have it shoot minute of coyote to point of aim every time I'm ecstatic. If I happen to find a factory load that's close to MOA off bags and a bench that will be great, but pure accuracy isn't the purpose of the Tavor in my mind.

Having said all that I've only put a handful of mags through it with poor and/or uncomfortable optics so I'm not sure what it's really capable of. The trigger isn't even close to the one in the SL8...you can actually hear things moving in the stock as you drag the trigger back. Again, for me not a big deal, but as a range only gun it'll probably make a lot of people unhappy.

As a working rifle for plinking at varmints and taking down the odd coyote I think a compact little unrestricted rifle like the Tavor is a gift from the heavens. If it's to be used for range work or long distance gophering then something like the SL8 or Swiss Arms would fit the bill better IMO.
 
Thanks for the feedback, that's good info for me...

Did you get your Tavor from CanAmmo? Or, is there another importer(hopefully with stock)?
 
I was fortunate to find a nice one in the EE, and as far as I know that's the only way to currently acquire one. I've heard various conflicting reports/stories about when CanAm will have more available, but the last word from them directly was simply "no updates as yet". :(
 
ITS 10 FREAKING DOLLARS A BOX WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!!!!!!

Try a different load of WWB. I've shot a bunch out of my Savage HB .223 and get on average ~1.5" @100 with the 55gr stuff, but find ~1" is the norm for the 45gr stuff. (1:9" twist for those picky types).

The ammo isn't neccesarily bad, it might just be that your gun doesn't like the load.
 
Yup, it sure seems that SL8's don't like WWB in 55 grains. (I have no experience with the WWB 55grain cartridges in any other rifle.)

I plan on trying other ammo in the SL8(not out of an obsession for perfection but more out of curiosity). As I've read through the responses in this thread, I've picked up some really helpful clues that have sent me off researching the relationship between bullet weights and barrel twist rates. So, I'm grateful for all the responses, in particular Hunter7's. Now I'm interested in trying more varieties of bullets to see how they perform...

But, so far I'm a fan of the PMC bronze, especially since I paid about the same price for both brands. (I picked up 4 cases of The Shooting Edge leftover PMC stock for under $500 per case, almost the exact price I paid for the case of WWB I bought from a local Vancouver vendor).
 
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