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I posted this in the newb section but had no response so here it is again

Is storing a handgun with the slide locked back bad for the pistol? The case for my Beretta 92fs is to small for a trigger lock so I have to use a cable.
 
singleaction said:
Just curious as to why do you folks recommend the slide being closed over open? Is this the compressed spring reasoning that we hear argued about the loaded mags?
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Yes, it has nothing to do with firearms safety and everything with mechanics and physics. Every mechanical device, when not in use, should be stored in "mechanical state zero" or as close to it as possible.
 
Armafix said:
Yes, it has nothing to do with firearms safety and everything with mechanics and physics. Every mechanical device, when not in use, should be stored in "mechanical state zero" or as close to it as possible.
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Umm what?

Just so you know, it doesn't matter if the spring is fully compressed or fully extended. Springs get worn out or damaged by either using them until they have gone through enough cycles to wear them out, or being stretched or compressed beyond the deformation point.

You could leave your pistol slide locked for 100 years in the safe, come back to it and it'll work as good as the day you left it there. Assuming it was stored correctly.
 
Just like a mag, you can leave them full forever without trouble, it's the cycling that wears them out. Think of a car, all the weight is on the springs as it sits but they still function fine 30 years later if the mileage is low whereas a two year old car with extremely high mileage can have worn out springs.
 
NavyCuda said:
You could leave your pistol slide locked for 100 years in the safe, come back to it and it'll work as good as the day you left it there. Assuming it was stored correctly.
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So you have two identical springs, one of them compressed almost to a bind point, stored correctly in the safe for 100 years. And after this time they're still the same. Is this what you are saying?
 
12.6envy said:
Just like a mag, you can leave them full forever without trouble, it's the cycling that wears them out. Think of a car, all the weight is on the springs as it sits but they still function fine 30 years later if the mileage is low whereas a two year old car with extremely high mileage can have worn out springs.
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Not true! Antique and collector cars are often jacked up and put on jack stands for storage to let the springs relax.;)
 
Springs will take a "set" when left compressed for long periods. If you were to store your car for 30 years with an extra 5 tons of weight in it, the springs would definitely be set in a compressed position.
 
Store it whichever way is convenient. Well-designed springs made from proper materials will not take a set from being stored compressed.

Practically any spring in a pistol will be partially compressed when installed, anyway.
 
Armafix said:
So you have two identical springs, one of them compressed almost to a bind point, stored correctly in the safe for 100 years. And after this time they're still the same. Is this what you are saying?
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The amount of force output by the spring should remain unchanged.

To hard to multi-quote on my phone but the springs will not remain compressed on a car that was sat for 30 years. As soon. As you take the weight off them they will return to their fully extended weight. What does happen, is it takes loaded suspension movement to get the springs to settle into one height. If you lift the car, it will have to settle again with suspension movement. The spring rate will not change unless the spring is damaged or worn out from use.

I'm not a scientist but I've worked on enough cars to know this to be true.
 
Enjoy...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369/


The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.
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I'm in the "it doesn't matter camp, springs wear due to use not compression or expansion." That being said, who f*cking cares. A recoil spring is a $10 part, buy lots and replace often..

TDC
 
I've read this article and while I get and do not dispute the basic science of it I have also observed and measured brand new (magazine) springs that have taken a compression-set after only a few days. They still worked, but they were definitely shorter. Many variables could contribute to this of course; quality control, possibly exceeding design limits, etc. I have also had magazine springs last for years of continuous abuse, particularly when not fully loaded, as in our ten round Canadian paradigm. I've measured brand new recoil springs from the same manufacturer of the same rate and gotten different reading from each spring. I can only conclude from this that there are variations in material that can only be accounted for to within a certain "range."

Recoil springs are only under partial load when the slide is closed and thus would never approach the elastic limit, and while I've never had occasion to leave a slide locked open for a long period of time, based on personal observations with mag springs I would expect that not all springs are created equal and govern myself accordingly. As TDC noted above, springs are cheap.
 
smiley1 said:
Not true! Antique and collector cars are often jacked up and put on jack stands for storage to let the springs relax.;)
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That's easier on tires but the springs don't care. I have a '36 Buick sitting at my work that has been sitting on the stock springs all it's life and still maintains the factory ride height minus the flat tires. I spent most of my life working on an modifying jeeps(professionally) lifted trucks have a ton of suspension movement, if a truck is driven, especially off road, a lot the springs will eventually sag, if the truck just sits around the springs will stay good forever. Unles they rust away.
 
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