Sloppy die tolerances rant

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daddylonglegs

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I collect Schultz & Larsen rifles, all of which are chambered very very close to SAMMI specs. I have noticed that all brands of new reloading dies do not take "range brass" or brass fired in other rifles back even close to SAMMI specs. I recently aquired a S&L in .264 Win Mag. A buddy gave me 500 rounds of once fired brass since he no longer had that caliber. Tried a new set of Redding dies (supposed to be premium dies) to resize this brass. No joy! No way could I close the bolt. I happened to have 50 rounds new factory unprimed and they fit the rifle fine. OK, I tried a set of new RCBS dies - still no joy! I have reloaded for 40 yrs + and tried the trick of having a machinest shorten the die .030. Now I could noticeably bump the shoulder back but the once fired brass still would not chamber. Then a buddy came along with an old old set of Bonanza dies and voila - now the brass can be resized to fit easily.
I have had this problem in Schultz rifles in .22-250, .264 Win Mag, .308 Norma Mag, .338 Win Mag, and .378 Weatherby. All were solved by finding old old die sets. Brand names do not seem to matter - Just age.
I had no problems with 7mm Rem Mag, 7X61 S&H, or .358 Norma Mag because I already had real old die sets in those calibers.

Recently I aquired a custom Win M70 in .25-06 with a Gallaird barrel done by Dennis Sorenson. Guntech chambered it tight which is what you expect from a gunsmith in a custom rifle. I started with 100 rounds new unprimed brass and everything went well until I lost 2 or 3 brass while hunting. No problem - I had 16 or 17 rounds of brass picked up at the range. Big problem - my brand new Redding dies would not resize this brass fired in another rifle to fit my gun. Back to my friendly machinest and shorten the die .030. Still no joy! OK, I buy a set of new Lee dies in .25-06 - no go! So I borrow a set of RCBS from a buddy - still no joy! Finally I run the brass through my ancient RCBS dies in .30-06 (taking the decapping spindle out as I don't want to expand case necks) and can tell immediately that some serious resizing is taking place. Now the range brass fits my gun and the bolt closes easily.

Why have all die makers gotten so sloppy with their tolerances? They haven't changed Sammi specs on any of these cartridges, and I have never had a problem with factory ammo or new unprimed cases. I know that most of the manufacturers chamber their rifles sloppy. That is why there is such a high demand for custom rifles and high end models, but why do die makers not make resizing dies that will take once fired brass back to the same size as new unprimed brass? I for one am tired of paying premium prices for reloading dies (like Redding) that do not do the job that the old dies would do!
Apologies for the long-winded rant.
 
Thats an interesting observation. One might expect the occasional tight chambered gun to be an issue but to run into the same problem over and over even with premium dies is something else.

I wonder how other modern rifle manufacturers are doing with cutting chambers to spec also.

My only suggestion would be to email or call the folks at CH4D or a similar custom die outfit and see if they can help.
 
That's unfortunate but at the same time interesting. I would like to hear what Redding and RCBS have to say about this also. If I had old dies I would help you out but I've only been reloading for a few years. I think I have a couple of pieces of 25-06 range brass, if you want I could resize one in a Hornady 270 die (without the expander) and send you one of resize and one not to see if the Hornady dies are like this as well.

Chad
 
Right or wrong, most dies work fine with most factory chambers these days so you would also have to ask why rifle chambers are cut so sloppy as well.
 
I've always been curious about this and maybe now is the time to ask.

Does it make any sense to shorten your die .030 vs polishing off the top of the shellholder the same amount?
I have never had to do this but making a dedicated shellholder seems to make more sense than a shortened die.
Cheaper too.

I have both RCBS and Redding in 25-06 and neither has ever failed when FL sizing for several different rifles. (RCBS early 80's die set and the Reddings are 2 years old.)
 
DOUGLAS D said:
I've always been curious about this and maybe now is the time to ask.

Does it make any sense to shorten your die .030 vs polishing off the top of the shellholder the same amount?
I have never had to do this but making a dedicated shellholder seems to make more sense than a shortened die.
Cheaper too.

I have both RCBS and Redding in 25-06 and neither has ever failed when FL sizing for several different rifles. (RCBS early 80's die set and the Reddings are 2 years old.)
Click to expand...

I have done this very thing, years ago. Interstingly, it was so a RCBS die would size down a 7x61 case, so it would go back in a Schultz and Larson rifle.
If anything, I think it is better than removing metal from the die, because it allows the case to go a bit deeper into the die.
Also, no need to do it on a lathe, just grind it off. Doesn't matter if it is not completely square.
 
Why not purchase competition shell holders? A set of 5 varies 10 thou. Not every firearms manufacturer produces sloppy chambers. Just had internal measurements taken on a Savage Model 10 PC. Exactly to specs, and shoots great!
 
H4831 said:
I have done this very thing, years ago. Interstingly, it was so a RCBS die would size down a 7x61 case, so it would go back in a Schultz and Larson rifle.
If anything, I think it is better than removing metal from the die, because it allows the case to go a bit deeper into the die.
Also, no need to do it on a lathe, just grind it off. Doesn't matter if it is not completely square.
Click to expand...

Thats the way I would try to do it as well.
I've got several flat surface large bench whetstones and would likely just keep making passes across the stone until I had enough metal removed from the shellholder face.

Redding competetion shellholders are just the opposite getting thicker in .010 increments.
Thicker shellholders reduce the shoulder setback amount.
Thinner than .125 will set the shoulder back further.
 
In 1973 I could not use a full length resizing die on my uncles Czechoslovakian Mauser .270 Winchester. I called RCBS and was told to lap/sand the top of the shell holder until a round would chamber and then remove .002 more.

The problem is "NOT" bad dies and sloppy chamber tolerances, what you are seeing is computer controlled machinery making tight tolerance dies and firearms.

The real problem is the headspace is being set closer to minimum headspace standards and chambering problems can occur because the shoulder is not being pushed back by the resizing dies. If the headspace was set longer on these rifles the dies would push the shoulder back further and the cartridge would chamber.

At the Savage Shooters forum you see this a lot because the headspace is adjustable on Savage rifles and sometimes the headspace is set tighter or under minimum specifications and the shell holder must be modified to make allowances for the shorter chamber.

Below a RCBS shell holder with .003 removed from the top of the shell holder to allow the case to be pushed further into the full length resizing die. (custom headspace)

IMGP6943.jpg


Below a RCBS full length .243 die and a Redding .243 full length die, the RCBS die will push the shoulder back to .001 under minimum headspace and the Redding die will push it back further to .003 under minimum headspace. Of note is the fact that different types of case resizing lubes will also effect how far the shoulder is pushed back depending on the viscosity and amount applied.

IMGP7243.jpg


Knowing the exact length of your fired cases and not pushing the shoulder back more the .001 to.002 each time you full length resize your cases will extend your case life when reloading.

7-17-201055522PM.jpg


7-17-201054719PM.jpg


7-17-201054345PM.jpg
 
Right you are BigEd.
Great explanation BTW.
I believe the reason that RCBS,Redding et al dont offer thinner shellholders is because they realize it's easier and cheaper to have their customers build their own for each individual's needs.
 
I ran into this as well with my Schultz & Larsen in 308 Norma Mag using RCBS dies and the Lee shell holder.
I was using a Lee shell holder and bought a RCBS and the problem seemed
to correct itself??????
I was just setting up my friends new RCBS kit that he just bought and found this
again with his Lee holder verses my RCBS.
Same make, model and caliber rifle as well.
Go figure.
He has a set of Bonanza dies and they seem to work with less effort than the RCBS
with the 308 NM brass.
I never heard of Bonanza before but was sure impressed with them.
 
From the machinist point of view the explanation is quite easy. The gun and reloading companies are producing oversize chambers and dies b/c beancounters are at work.... To make chambers and dies one must use the reamers, oversize reamers can be sharpened many, many times reaming superior amount of chambers and dies compared to normal, tight reamers. IF the used up chamber reamer is paired up with fresh die reamer then the there is no way that the brass is going to be sized down....it's just that easy. My 2c.
 
Reloading die manufacturer's could make their die any dimension they want. Why would they want to make them "sloppy"?
 
Isn't the problem really that your "free" brass got fired in a chamber so big that some dies can't fix it well enough fit in a rifle that was properly made? Maybe you should quit being such a cheapskate and get new brass for your gun instead of useing everyone else's garbage.:p

OK, that probably isn't going to happen.;)

Since you have already trimmed your die back without any gain its safe to say that length to shoulder isn't the problem. Going farther is just going to lead to case separations as you push the shoulder back too far. Chances are that it's a swollen body on the case that stopping it from chambering. Take a sharpie to the case and try chambering it. The rub marks will show you where the interference is. If its on the body above the belt, here's your cure.


Get a .300 Win Mag Small base die and take the decapping pin out of it. It now will work as a small base die for .257 Weatherby, .264 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag. If you got a .300 Win Mag Small Base Full length bushing die and left the bushing out it would work on the .338 Win as well.
A small base die will put a real squeeze on salvage brass, and you only have to do it once. I've got a few of them, and they get used quite a bit in calibers that I have more than one of.
 
Ron AKA said:
Reloading die manufacturer's could make their die any dimension they want. Why would they want to make them "sloppy"?
Click to expand...

B/c to make "sloppy" die allows them to use oversized reamers which can be sharpened let say three times and make let say 300 dies (100 dies per fresh reamer) instead useing tight reamer which after making 100 dies is simply scrapped.
 
Dogleg said:
Isn't the problem really that your "free" brass got fired in a chamber so big that some dies can't fix it well enough fit in a rifle that was properly made? Maybe you should quit being such a cheapskate and get new brass for your gun instead of useing everyone else's garbage.:p

OK, that probably isn't going to happen.;)

Since you have already trimmed your die back without any gain its safe to say that length to shoulder isn't the problem. Going farther is just going to lead to case separations as you push the shoulder back too far. Chances are that it's a swollen body on the case that stopping it from chambering. Take a sharpie to the case and try chambering it. The rub marks will show you where the interference is. If its on the body above the belt, here's your cure.


Get a .300 Win Mag Small base die and take the decapping pin out of it. It now will work as a small base die for .257 Weatherby, .264 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag. If you got a .300 Win Mag Small Base Full length bushing die and left the bushing out it would work on the .338 Win as well.
A small base die will put a real squeeze on salvage brass, and you only have to do it once. I've got a few of them, and they get used quite a bit in calibers that I have more than one of.
Click to expand...


Very good answer on being a cheapskate, these cases were "fireformed" in different "size" rifle clamberers at 50,000 cup and he is #####ing because his resizing die doesn't exert 51,000 cup to reform the cases fired in a different rifle chamber.

There is a term called "spring back" when the brass tries to resume its previous shape after sizing. Resizing fired brass from other rifles that was form fitted for that chamber can be a problem any time with any rifle.

Different brands of cases will resize differently or have different external measurements after resizing when fired in the same rifle. Also you have different "grades" of cartridge brass and the effects annealing.

brasshardness.jpg
 
I have a couple of .264WM's, and fired cases do not interchange. One issue is the diameter of the case right ahead of the belt. My 50 year old Lyman FL sizing die does not size that part of the case. Larry Willis sells a special collet sizing die that is supposed to correct it. See link below. However, it costs about $90 and you can buy quite a bit of brass for that money.


Scroll down the page to the second item:

http://www.larrywillis.com/
 
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