Sloppy die tolerances rant

Dogleg, perhaps you didn't read my original post completely. I have salvaged those 500 rounds of .264. As stated a buddy came up with an old set of Bonanza dies which did the job just fine. He got my new Redding dies in trade! I also explained that I salvaged the .25-06 brass by running it through my ancient .30-06 sizing die (center spindle removed) first. So far I have not run into a problem which I have not been able to solve. I am also aware of small base dies - try to find a major manufacturer who makes a set in .264 Mag, or for that matter .25-06. I am also aware of custom die makers and have had a few made over the years.

What puzzles me is that you regard range brass as garbage. At our range the majority of shooters do not handload and thus leave the brass. You have not explained to me how a brass once fired from a Winchester factory load differs from the once fired Win brass from my handload made from new unprimed cases. The only difference is one was fired from my rifle, one was not. A trip through a PROPER sizing die should make them equal, since my chamber is on the minimum side of specs. One day this fall I picked up over 500 rounds of once fired .45 ACP brass, 900 rounds of 9mm brass, and probably 150 rounds of assorted caliber rifle brass. Tell me you would just leave it lay!!!
 
H4831, I have fired a quantity of factory ammo circa late 1950's to early 1960's through my Schultz in 7X61S&H, and have never had a problem with resizing them to go back into my gun. Where I ran into a problem was a batch of brass that had been fired in a Husky previously.
And no, to all critics out there, I was not being cheap. Just try to buy new unprimed brass or factory ammo in 7X61! Norma is out of stock and the last special run of it has all been snapped up long since. (Thankfully, I now have enough to keep me going).
 
The only difference is one was fired from my rifle, one was not.
Click to expand...

Actually, there's another big difference. One of those will chamber in your rifle, one will not.:p from where I'm sitting that's a big deal.

Here's your choices:

You can fix the problem by:

a) Keeping your ammo sorted like everyone else.
b) Use a small base or custom die so you can size down to enough to chamber in the smallest chamber.A small base die costs less than a 50 bag of Winchester brass.
c)Pray that all the die makers will only made minimum spec dies from now on just so your antique rifle will function with range pickups. Write a stern letter, it may help.
d)You could wash your dies in hot water, then dry them in the dryer on high heat.That shrinks my wool socks, and may work on your dies. Let me know how it turns out.:stirthepot2:
e)You could just get over it. The cure exists, you know about it, but for whatever reason don't want do it.
 
daddylonglegs said:
H4831, I have fired a quantity of factory ammo circa late 1950's to early 1960's through my Schultz in 7X61S&H, and have never had a problem with resizing them to go back into my gun. Where I ran into a problem was a batch of brass that had been fired in a Husky previously.
And no, to all critics out there, I was not being cheap. Just try to buy new unprimed brass or factory ammo in 7X61! Norma is out of stock and the last special run of it has all been snapped up long since. (Thankfully, I now have enough to keep me going).
Click to expand...

I'm no expert on the 7X61 S&H but I do know that there was a few around in central Saskatchewan back in the 1970's.
Every one that I had a chance to look at was a Schultz and Larsen.

Did Husky make a run of factory chambered rifles or is the brass you are having problems with out of a chamber cut by a gunsmith's reamer?

Reason I ask is that I've never seen a factory chambered 7X61 S&H in a Husky rifle.
 
daddylonglegs said:
Guys, an undersize chamber is not the problem. Factory ammo whether Norma, Federal, Win. etc. will all fit into any Schultz rifle. Ditto new unprimed brass. Factory ammo has to fit any rifle in that caliber. Shouldn't resizing dies be expected to resize any fired case so that it will chamber in any rifle also????
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In short. How do you know that it isn't the problem? It sounds like it is exactly the problem. The undersize chamber, that is.

Factory ammo runs on the smallest side that they can, so that it will fit as many rifles as possible. If you want the best performance, typically, you fireform the ammo to your chamber, then size it as little as possible from there to reload.

Here's a suggestion. Buy dies made in Europe, to European specs. And cast your chamber so that you will know for sure what size it actually is. Chances are better that they match the spec that your chamber was cut to meet. What do you think the odds are that S&L care what SAMMI thinks? Are they signatories to the SAMMI specs at the time that rifle was made?
Worth considering.

If the diemakers were as ####ed up as you seem to think they are, they would be out of business from the returns and warranty work. But they keep rolling along. That means they are meeting the needs of at least the vast majority of their customers, no?

So. No. Every die will not size any brass to fit all chambers. Work with it.

Cheers
Trev
 
Jeesh, my algebra sucks...........
I've been mulling this over and I can't get a handle on it.
If you have a shell holder in your press, say an RCBS #5 and a 308 Norma Mag case in
said holder, and a set of same dies in the press, how is it that it matters how thick the
shell holder is? The die is threaded so up or down, would it not compensate for the holder
thickness?
I suppose I should of said my geometry sucks.
Ya, eye know, ya can't fix stupid but I know there is a difference when using different
thickness shell holders??????????
Care to explain this to me?
Thanks one and all, Merry Christmas.
 
kamlooky said:
Jeesh, my algebra sucks...........
I've been mulling this over and I can't get a handle on it.
If you have a shell holder in your press, say an RCBS #5 and a 308 Norma Mag case in
said holder, and a set of same dies in the press, how is it that it matters how thick the
shell holder is? The die is threaded so up or down, would it not compensate for the holder
thickness?
I suppose I should of said my geometry sucks.
Ya, eye know, ya can't fix stupid but I know there is a difference when using different
thickness shell holders??????????
Care to explain this to me?
Thanks one and all, Merry Christmas.
Click to expand...

Once your shell holder hits the bottom of your sizing die, you can't push the case in any further. The only way is to take material off the bottom of the die, or the top of the shell holder.
 
Did Husky make a run of factory chambered rifles or is the brass you are having problems with out of a chamber cut by a gunsmith's reamer?

Reason I ask is that I've never seen a factory chambered 7X61 S&H in a Husky rifle.[/QUOTE]

I believe that Husqvarna did factory chamber 7X61S&H, and I believe BSA also did. They are rare in Canada and rarely seen. This caliber is most often found in Schultz & Larsen rifles in this country.

To Dogleg: I'm pleased to find that my Schultz rifles made in the 1960's are antique. Perhaps I can get them de-registered! Also I HAVE SOLVED MY PROBLEMS; I'm over it.

To TrevJ: That is what neck-sizing dies were invented for. Just saying that it seems the Ammo manufacturers are using different specs than the die manufacturers and current rifle manufacturers. Perhaps the ammo makers should slightly increase the size of cases so that there would be less expansion on the first firing! But then SAMMI specs would also have to evolve and get slightly larger also. I guess precision machining is the reason so many people are buying Coopers, Kimbers, Dakotas etc. , and having custom rifles built (with tight chambers).
 
kamlooky said:
Jeesh, my algebra sucks...........
I've been mulling this over and I can't get a handle on it.
If you have a shell holder in your press, say an RCBS #5 and a 308 Norma Mag case in
said holder, and a set of same dies in the press, how is it that it matters how thick the
shell holder is? The die is threaded so up or down, would it not compensate for the holder
thickness?
I suppose I should of said my geometry sucks.
Ya, eye know, ya can't fix stupid but I know there is a difference when using different
thickness shell holders??????????
Care to explain this to me?
Thanks one and all, Merry Christmas.
Click to expand...

The industry standard for shell holders is supposed to be .100", from the face that bears on the cartridge case head, to the front face, so the die makers all try to cut their sizing dies to match that, so that the case is sized correctly (in most cases anyways) when the die and the holder make contact. If you need to push the shoulder back a wee bit more, or get that smidge taken off the diameter by going a bit deeper, you shave the cheaper of the two parts, most of the time.

That help?

Cheers
Trev
 
daddylonglegs said:
To TrevJ: That is what neck-sizing dies were invented for. Just saying that it seems the Ammo manufacturers are using different specs than the die manufacturers and current rifle manufacturers. Perhaps the ammo makers should slightly increase the size of cases so that there would be less expansion on the first firing! But then SAMMI specs would also have to evolve and get slightly larger also. I guess precision machining is the reason so many people are buying Coopers, Kimbers, Dakotas etc. , and having custom rifles built (with tight chambers).
Click to expand...

Dig up some SAMMI specs and see what a range they have to cover, between min and max cartridge, and min and max case dimensions, then consider that if you have a minimum cartridge in a maximum chamber, how much that stretches or works the case. Newer cartridges have closer tolerance ranges, for the most part.
Some of the old ones, like the .303 British, as probably one of the worst, have what can only politely be described as huge bloody chambers. A new production gun built by a SAMMI maker, is going to have that same crappy chamber that worked so well to operate in a muddy battlefield.

But are you sure SAMMI ever had anything to do with the specs for your ammo and chamber?

We live in a really golden age, as precision machining goes. Guys thought they were in heaven when they got a rifle that could be tuned to shoot sub-inch groups with good handloads. Now they expect that or better from an off the shelf bargain brand rifle and factory loads, and often enough, they get it. Production machines can churn out parts that are straighter, more consistent, and to tighter tolerances, than the likes of Winchester or Remington could dream about getting on the machinery they built their businesses upon.

Same goes for the tooling used to grind reamers, chamber or otherwise. Want a tight neck? Order a reamer. Want a shorter or longer leade, or none at all? Order it. Just a matter of programming the changes into the grinder. Need a sizing die that fits your rifle? You know where this is going, don't you?:D Cast the chamber, talk to the die maker or the reamer maker, and have it made to fit. In the long run, it's not a lot of money to do the custom reamer route. Less to deal with the die makers.

Cheers
Trev
 
daddylonglegs said:
H4831, I have fired a quantity of factory ammo circa late 1950's to early 1960's through my Schultz in 7X61S&H, and have never had a problem with resizing them to go back into my gun. Where I ran into a problem was a batch of brass that had been fired in a Husky previously.
And no, to all critics out there, I was not being cheap. Just try to buy new unprimed brass or factory ammo in 7X61! Norma is out of stock and the last special run of it has all been snapped up long since. (Thankfully, I now have enough to keep me going).
Click to expand...

Is it not entirely possible that the Husqvarna has a hugely oversized chamber that is stretching those cases to the point they need to be run though a smallbase die to bring them back close to spec?

Since factory brass and brass fired in the S&L all work then it seems to point to the chamber of the Husky as the trouble spot,not the die set.
 
A standard FL sizing die (no matter when it was made) is not going to resize a belted magnum case that has been fired in a chamber that is too big right in front of the belt. Has nothing to do with die manufacturing tolerances.
 
Grinding Dies and Shellholders ...

99% of the time it's a big mistake to grind your dies or shellholders.

Here's why:

In most cases you're already pushing the shoulder back farther than you think. One of the most common causes when handloads "fail to chamber" is that the cases are too wide. Pushing the shoulder back even farther accomplishes more than you might think.

Here's what happens:


When the shoulder is pushed back too far, the case "may" chamber. However, the brass is then stretched too much during repetitive firings, and this thins (and weakens) the brass enough to bulge cases during the reloading process. It also leads to case head separation.

Redding Competition Shellholders?

They work well for what they are intended. However, they don't affect case width very much, and they can only increase case length "at the shoulder".

So, what can you do?


Check out the Digital Headspace Gauge. It's designed to measure YOUR handloads compared to YOUR particular chamber. That removes the guesswork of resizing, and it eliminates the grinding of good reloading tools.

How does it do that?

The Digital Headspace Gauge is specifically designed for the handloader. It is calibrated by inserting one of your fired cases, and then it measures one of your handloads. Then it displays the chamber clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. That's the info needed to set your die height prefectly - with no grinding.

You wouldn't expect a carpenter to build your house without measuring. So . . . . start measuring your handloads at the shoulder.

Remember:

The measurement of your handloads is useless information unless you also compare that to the size of your particular chamber. The Digital Headspace Gauge does that in one simple operation.

Good Shooting,
Larry
 
Thanks for the tip Innovative, on the digital headspace guage. Sounds like a useful tool.
My problems were caused by case width near the base, not that the shoulder was not being bumped back enough. Problem was solved through finding an older die that was tighter at the base than my new die.
I am aware of the dangers and shortened case life caused by creating excessive headspace, so one does not need to screw a shortened die all the way down.
Does Sinclair or Brownells carry the digital headspace guages? I have not seen them in Sporting goods stores in Sask.
 
Digital Headspace Gauge ...

daddylonglegs .......

Case width problems "near the base" are caused by too much clearance at the shoulder. This clearance causes brass to stretch when it's fired, and the stretching occurs just above the web (solid part) of the case.

Why does the brass stretch near the head?

If your handloads have clearance at the shoulder, the firing pin pushes the case forward, and the brass expands to firmly grip the chamber wall (with 50,000 PSI). The case head is then forced back to the bolt - stretching the brass at the rear.

The brass soon becomes paper thin just above the head. That's why case head separations usually happen right near the case head. When the case wall is paper thin, it bulges from any downward pressure during reloading the process ..... case width problems at the base.

Where can you find the Digital Headspace Gauge?

I designed (and patented) the Digital Headspace Gauge, and at this time it's only available from my website (below).

Good Shooting,
Larry
 
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