Slow rust bluing - can't make it go dark

Mauser98, my new peice barely even rusted on both the first and second coat! Here is what I am going to do and please correct me if I am doing something wrong.

1) Go get some Orange Lightning degreaser, acetone and distilled water.
2) Polish the peice with silicon carbide paper. (Do I need to wear gloves at this step to keep oil off?)
3) Put on gloves sprayed with degreaser.
4) Bath in warm water and dish soap.
5) Spray degreaser on part. (Do I need to rise this off at all?)
6) Soak part in acetone (How long??).
7) Dry off with a blow dryer.
8) Put a drop of solution on a Q-tip and apply it to the part.
9) Let rust for 9 or so hours.
10) boil in distilled water.
11) Soak fine steel wool in acetone (Do I need to let this dry?).
12) Card the part with the steel wool and repeat step 4 on.

I think my problem may be the acetone, if TSP is a rust remover and I use it to degrease the part there may be residue on the part which inhibits rusting. Hopefully this other degreaser and acetone will help me out.

I'm glad I have tried some practice parts before doing something important. I wish I had more time but right now I am trying to learn to blue my gun, working 30 hours, and trying to finish my last year of univeristy (in that order of priority :)). So bear with me....


Thanks!
Evan
 
Hi Evan. I've added comments in bold below.

evster said:
Mauser98, my new peice barely even rusted on both the first and second coat! Here is what I am going to do and please correct me if I am doing something wrong.

1) Go get some Orange Lightning degreaser (this stuff worked great for me), acetone and distilled water.
2) Polish the peice with silicon carbide paper. (Do I need to wear gloves at this step to keep oil off?)
No
3) Put on gloves sprayed with degreaser.
Rinse under the tap
4) Bath in warm water and dish soap.
Rinse under the tap
5) Spray degreaser on part. (Do I need to rise this off at all?)
Rinse with tap water
6) Soak part in acetone (How long??).
Just a good rub-down this a acetone-soked cloth will do
7) Dry off with a blow dryer.
Not needed. Acetone evaporates almost immediately. Also, acetone is quite flamable so be careful with heat sources
8) Put a drop of solution on a Q-tip and apply it to the part.
9) Let rust for 9 or so hours.
If the piece isn't rusting, the relative humidity may be too low. RH should be around 70-85% so you may have to rig up a damp box of some sort. On my first effort I used a large cardboard box and a crock-pot filled with water. I believe Luckyguy included some ideas in his instructions.
10) boil in distilled water.
11) Soak fine steel wool in acetone (Do I need to let this dry?).
I have my steel-wool degreased before I start the whole procedure
12) Card the part with the steel wool and repeat step 4 on.
Actually, at this point, you only have to repeat from step 8. Wear the rubber gloves during all steps including carding

I think my problem may be the acetone, if TSP is a rust remover and I use it to degrease the part there may be residue on the part which inhibits rusting. Hopefully this other degreaser and acetone will help me out.

I'm glad I have tried some practice parts before doing something important. I wish I had more time but right now I am trying to learn to blue my gun, working 30 hours, and trying to finish my last year of univeristy (in that order of priority :)). So bear with me....


Thanks!
Evan
Click to expand...
 
Looks like that did the trick, two coats and it was "as black as Elvira's heart". I think my problem was the degreaser and the acetone.

Hopefully this works out for the rest of the parts, i'll let you know how it looks when finished!

Evan
 
Well this has no shortage of frustration for me, luckily I like experimenting with things :). Got the one peice to go black but I was still able to scratch most of the black off with #0000 super fine steel whool. Also, I started experimenting on another metal peice as well and found that each time I was not getting very much black after boiling (mostly still red rest) and when I carded it it all came off. This time I did everything down to the letter, what do you think the problem could be?? Should I let it rust longer?? I have been rusting it for about 9 hours in a humid bathroom, maybe I should leave it longer.

Any ideas????

Thanks!
Evan
 
evster said:
Well this has no shortage of frustration for me, luckily I like experimenting with things :). Got the one peice to go black but I was still able to scratch most of the black off with #0000 super fine steel whool. Also, I started experimenting on another metal peice as well and found that each time I was not getting very much black after boiling (mostly still red rest) and when I carded it it all came off. This time I did everything down to the letter, what do you think the problem could be?? Should I let it rust longer?? I have been rusting it for about 9 hours in a humid bathroom, maybe I should leave it longer.

Any ideas????

Thanks!
Evan
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are rubbing too hard with the steel wool. Remember that you're just trying to remove the loose black crap.

If you still have red rust after boiling, the humidity in the bathroom may be too high and the water vapor may be condensing on the metal. This will cause 'bad' red rust to form on the metal. This happened to me on a couple of my early efforts.

or

you're leaving the parts to rust to long(especially if the RH is high). I find with Luckyguys's solution, 3-4 hours is ample to get a good coat of rust.

In my damp box, I like to have an RH of 75-80% and the temperature is 100-105 F. If the RH gets much over 80%, I increase the temp in the box(I have a lightbulb on a rheostat in the box). I also have a fan in the damp box.
 
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Ok, I applied solution at 3 today and so just now (6:30) I boiled it. The piece had a nice thin layer of rust, so thin you couldn't see individual rust particles. After boiling it turned a bit darker but not black and I softly brushed it with steel whool (not even applying any pressure) and I revealed shiny silver metal underneath. There are a few black spots on it from a previous attempt where it was too wet and it rusted in blotches but nothing else is turning color. What I don't undertand is if I am getting a nice thin layer of rust how come when I boil it it doesn't turn black? And then it all scratches off after that?

Hah...most people would be frustrated by now I think....but I am having fun!
 
Hi Evster and Mauser 98. Have been observing your discussion re: rust bluing. Sounds like M98 has you mostly sorted out Evster. Just wanted to make a couple of observations and throw out a question:

1. All that acetone is making me dizzy! I wash all my project pieces and steel wool with good-old-fashioned washing soda, you can find it at Canadian Tire and most supermarkets. I make a paste of it with water and give it a rub, then rinse with very hot H2O. That's it. No problems with the solution sticking to the metal for me. Another option is sodium bicarbonate, make a paste, let dry, then brush off. Of course make sure your brush is clean.

2. You can make your own rusting solution with hydrochloric acid (muriatic) (best to do this outside, especially if married) available at Can.Tire; degrease a bunch of iron nails and/or steel wool, rinse and put in a glass jar. Pour in acid, leave off the lid, and let work until it stops bubbling. If all metal dissolves, add more. What you are trying to do is load the solution with iron which accelerates the rusting process. I have found this solution to work good, but I find I am getting a somewhat satin finish and thought that my solution may be 'biting' the metal too much from the acidity; I may try neutralizing it a bit with antacid.

3. Super fine steel wool has worked good for me but I am trying to find a steel brush wheel with very fine and long strands that I can put on a grinder. If anyone knows of a source please PM me. Rubbing with steel wool is very time consuming.

Questions: 1. Evster, what is this third piece of metal you are working on? The way the rust is forming and then coming off sounds like stainless. Can't rust blue stainless steel. 2. M98, I noticed in another post you mentioned that you were not getting a good gloss in the finish until you waxed it, has me wondering, as I read a post elsewhere from a gunsmith who was rust bluing doubles and using the above mentioned wire brush for polishing. Also, I am questioning and researching carding BEFORE boiling. What do you think?

Cheers,
Ian
 
Pudelpointer, just to answer your question. The peice I am working with now is not stainless (at least I think not) since it had bluing on it before that I have removed. I am going to try dipping the part in some muriatic acid mixed with water first, I have read somewhere (can't remember where) that this etches the metal and may provide a better surface to rust. Does this sound plausible?
 
Pudelpointer said:
Hi Evster and Mauser 98. Have been observing your discussion re: rust bluing. Sounds like M98 has you mostly sorted out Evster. Just wanted to make a couple of observations and throw out a question:

1. All that acetone is making me dizzy! I wash all my project pieces and steel wool with good-old-fashioned washing soda, you can find it at Canadian Tire and most supermarkets. I make a paste of it with water and give it a rub, then rinse with very hot H2O. That's it. No problems with the solution sticking to the metal for me. Another option is sodium bicarbonate, make a paste, let dry, then brush off. Of course make sure your brush is clean.

2. You can make your own rusting solution with hydrochloric acid (muriatic) (best to do this outside, especially if married) available at Can.Tire; degrease a bunch of iron nails and/or steel wool, rinse and put in a glass jar. Pour in acid, leave off the lid, and let work until it stops bubbling. If all metal dissolves, add more. What you are trying to do is load the solution with iron which accelerates the rusting process. I have found this solution to work good, but I find I am getting a somewhat satin finish and thought that my solution may be 'biting' the metal too much from the acidity; I may try neutralizing it a bit with antacid.

3. Super fine steel wool has worked good for me but I am trying to find a steel brush wheel with very fine and long strands that I can put on a grinder. If anyone knows of a source please PM me. Rubbing with steel wool is very time consuming.

Questions: 1. Evster, what is this third piece of metal you are working on? The way the rust is forming and then coming off sounds like stainless. Can't rust blue stainless steel. 2. M98, I noticed in another post you mentioned that you were not getting a good gloss in the finish until you waxed it, has me wondering, as I read a post elsewhere from a gunsmith who was rust bluing doubles and using the above mentioned wire brush for polishing. Also, I am questioning and researching carding BEFORE boiling. What do you think?

Cheers,
Ian
Click to expand...

Hi Ian

I hear you regarding the acetone. I use it outside and as a final wipe before applying the first coat.

The solution you're using is similar to the Neidner solution which is a mix of hydrocloric and nitric acids and iron nails. Apparently a very effective rust bluing solution. I toyed with the idea of trying it but I fear the neighbours may not be too impressed with the fumes.

Here's the brush I'm using. It works like a hot dam. Steel wool is still required for some tighter areas. I mount it in my drill press and turn it at about 500 rpm.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6762&title=.0025%22+STAINLESS+STEEL+BRUSHING+WHEELS

I haven't experimented with carding prior to boiling although I've heard of doing it that way. I am having such good success with the way I'm doing things that I would be reluctant to change.
 
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While I am waiting I thought i'd throw out another couple of questions for you guys...

Some parts I want to leave shiny silver metal, is there some sort of clear coat I can use to keep it from changing color and rusting?

Also, I will be cleaning the inards of this gun up since it is old and gunky, what do you guys use to lubricate and protect from rust for parts of the action and trigger, etc?

Thanks!
Evan
 
Aha!! Etching it with vinegar before applying my first coat looks like it is doing the trick! It came out pitch black after one coat, the first carding removed lots this but it definately stayed a lot darker colour than before. Hopefully that is the trick!
 
evster said:
While I am waiting I thought i'd throw out another couple of questions for you guys...

Some parts I want to leave shiny silver metal, is there some sort of clear coat I can use to keep it from changing color and rusting?

Also, I will be cleaning the inards of this gun up since it is old and gunky, what do you guys use to lubricate and protect from rust for parts of the action and trigger, etc?

Thanks!
Evan
Click to expand...

I got a small bottle of lacquer from a hobby shop to coat the areas where I didn't want blue. It also works great for coating the bore on the barrels. It can easily be removed with toluol.

I use tranmission oil for virtually all my gun lubrication.
 
Thanks for the link for the brush Paul. Unfortunately they are out of stock, but I will order one as soon as they have one in. Evster, glad to hear the vinegar worked, that was going to be my suggestion to tryt before the muriatic as vinegar is a lot safer to use. Will be starting a couple of rifles and a couple of old shotguns soon. Will try and get some photos going.

Cheers
 
Pudelpointer said:
Thanks for the link for the brush Paul. Unfortunately they are out of stock, but I will order one as soon as they have one in. Evster, glad to hear the vinegar worked, that was going to be my suggestion to tryt before the muriatic as vinegar is a lot safer to use. Will be starting a couple of rifles and a couple of old shotguns soon. Will try and get some photos going.

Cheers
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention that I bought the 4-row model of the brush.

The vinegar sounds like a heck of a good idea if the bluing solution isn't biting. So far I haven't needed it.

Photos are always good.

On my next project, I'll be using some of this stuff. I've read a couple of articles that gave it rave reviews I and thought I'd give it a try. It's the only bluing solution that Brownells will ship to Canada.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7780&title=BARREL+BROWN+%26+DEGREASER
 
Next question: Is it correct for it to rust less and less as I put more coats on? I haven't gotten a pitch black color yet after about 4 coats but I am noticing it rusting less and less. I beleive this part may not go pitch black as it was very very very shiny metal so I am actually getting a "glossy" finish and so maybe some of the silver is still showing through. I'll probablly give it 8 coats and then see how it looks, maybe I will try to post a pic to.
 
evster said:
Next question: Is it correct for it to rust less and less as I put more coats on? I haven't gotten a pitch black color yet after about 4 coats but I am noticing it rusting less and less. I beleive this part may not go pitch black as it was very very very shiny metal so I am actually getting a "glossy" finish and so maybe some of the silver is still showing through. I'll probablly give it 8 coats and then see how it looks, maybe I will try to post a pic to.
Click to expand...

Yes, it will rust less as the the coats mount up. It's because there us less exposed rustable(?) metal after each coat.
 
Heh, we should rename this to the "Ask Mauser98" thread. Anyway, next question: My vinegar idea is working great! I am probablly going to want to do this on the barrel when I get to that point. What do you suggest I plug the barrel ends with so that the vinegar doesn't eat away at the bore? Or would it be doing little harm to let it chew at the surface of the bore?
 
evster said:
Heh, we should rename this to the "Ask Mauser98" thread. Anyway, next question: My vinegar idea is working great! I am probablly going to want to do this on the barrel when I get to that point. What do you suggest I plug the barrel ends with so that the vinegar doesn't eat away at the bore? Or would it be doing little harm to let it chew at the surface of the bore?
Click to expand...

You're just wiping the metal with Vinegar, right? If so, don't worry about the bore. Just make sure the bore is degreased prior to boiling so as not to contaminate the water.

When boiling the barrel, you have a couple of choices as to how you treat the bore.

One, you can coat the bore with lacquer on a barrel swab. Let the lacquer dry and boil away. At the end of the project, swab the bore with toluol to remove the lacquer then oil.

Or, you can do nothing with the bore. Just degrease it and blue/boil. After boiling, wipe out the bore with a clean, dry patch using a degreased cleaning rod. The water in the bore after boiling will evaporate instantly after removal from the water. I've done this on my last 4 barrels and have had absoluely no rusting occur. Again, at the end of the project, oil the bore.

Do not plug the bore at both ends. There is a potential for the plugs to pop out and splash hot water when the barrel hits the boiling water.
 
Wow, the parts I am doing are starting to look really nice. I have oiled one and I am going to wax it soon. I am using the same wax as you mauser98, so any tips? I was planning on just rubbing in a tiny bit at a time just to get a very very thin layer. Anything else I should know before I start?
 
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