Slugging my .338 barrel. w/photos.

Kelly Timoffee

Kelly Timoffee

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
52   0   0
Location
Prince Albert, Sk
Again I am pissing around with my non-shooting barrel.

I am curious as are many others as to WTF is going on and why I can't shoot.And a thank you to a fellow CGN'er for assisting me tremendously with this undertaking by providing some slugs and bullet jackets.

Here are the photos, one at each 90 degrees of the slug.









Ok so here are my findings/process/failures.

Get all set up with the slugs and lube and rod and mallet.Get a nice chunk of 6 x 6 to rest rear of action on.

So I juice up this slug and the barrel and drop the slug through the brake and onto the crown, sits very nice with the tapper on the slug ready to go.

This will be easy!!!

So, to save my cleaning rods I decided to use wood dowel, thank my brain now for that.I cut dowel into sections about 8" and begin to tap that slug into the barrel with the mallet and 1/4" dowel.Goes in about an inch, wham!!! dowel starts to bend, next hit, snap!!Okay, bad chucnk of wood, take another 1/4" rod, pow!!! two hits, does it again.

Man, what did I do wrong here???So, I look, scratch my head, scratch somewhere else , pace a little then decide, if I have to fight to get it out I might as well fight it right through to the chamber.

Go get some 5/16" dowel I have, just enough to fit but does follow the rifling.Cut pieces once again.Start out with mallet and tapping, well frick!!! this bloody thing won't go!!So I get a metal hammer, and it just starts to move and then, it takes off.Just before the chamber it tightens up significantly , almost to the point I feel the dowel will break again but it did decide to make it through.

So, as this is my first time, I don't know for sure but it sure didn't seem right to me.

How say you all? Anything more I need to post to help out diagnosis?

I know it isn't a perfect method, but it is something.
 
So How big are the groups, I know for a fact that most savage factory barrels open up going toward the muzzle because they are not stress releived after rifling and they shoot pretty good ,I measured a few after hearing this in a John Krieger interview .

If there is to much difference it certainly might be the problem.


Edit: Ok I read a few of your posts and see it is a shilen prefit barrel , my guess is it is just fine but a few things come to mind the crown , the bedding , and the bolt head clearance.
Was the barrel properly headspaced with a gauge cause I have seen a few savage barrels where the bolt head was just touching the breech and they wouldn't shoot.
 
Last edited:
This is a factory barrel that I have had tremendous headaches trying to get to shoot, my threads with the ladder tests show all the trials.

The Shilen is on order and will hopefully correct the issue I am having.

The groups I was getting had zero consistency and were typically approaching 2 MOA


coyote said:
So How big are the groups, I know for a fact that most savage factory barrels open up going toward the muzzle because they are not stress releived after rifling and they shoot pretty good ,I measured a few after hearing this in a John Krieger interview .

If there is to much difference it certainly might be the problem.


Edit: Ok I read a few of your posts and see it is a shilen prefit barrel , my guess is it is just fine but a few things come to mind the crown , the bedding , and the bolt head clearance.
Was the barrel properly headspaced with a gauge cause I have seen a few savage barrels where the bolt head was just touching the breech and they wouldn't shoot.
Click to expand...
 
Driving a slug with a wooden dowel is just asking for trouble. You are so lucky you did not cause an obstruction that would be very hard to remove. Wood has no place inside a barrel. I would use a close fitting flat nosed steel rod wrapped with tape every couple of inches to protect the bore.

That being said I would never slug a barrel because I had an accuracy problem. If you managed to successfully drive a slug through the barrel (breech to muzzle) and got an accurate slug to examine, how and what would you do next? You may be able to accurately measure the diameter (bottom of the grooves)? Are you able to measure the bore? (Top of the rifling). And what would that tell you?

Slugging a bore is usually done to determine exact size to determine what you need for shooting lead bullets most accurately.

Quite possibly enough was not removed from the muzzle of the barrel when it was installed.
 
Well it could be all kinds of things causing the poor grouping, the best thing to do imo is send it to a smith like Guntech that knows what to look for and maybe resolve the problem quickly.

I was under the impression it was a custom build, if it is a fairly new gun send it to savage for waranty.


Edit: Ok I read some of your posts with the ladder testing, I'm not even sure what kind of gun you're shooting does it have a flimsy plastic stock , laminate , or composite and is it properly bedded?

My guess is there might not be to much wrong with the rifle , Afriend of mine had a dud from savage a few years ago but it was in like 8 inches @ 100yds .
Something tells me yours just needs a bit of tweaking.
 
Last edited:
I told him in his 300 hundred page post about accuracy problems to bed the barrel at the end of the stock with something as simple as paper just to try to see what he would get for results. More often then not the barrel has a bad song or vibration when fired and if you can change the song a little bit groups usually tighten up. If not oh well it didn't cost anything but time and ammo to try. He told me I was nuts
 
Adding under barrel pressure way out front is the quickest, easiest and more often than not a resolution
for crappy groups.
Did I forget to mention cheapest as well?

Lernt this from the gunpowder feller............Mr. H.

:wave:
 
I prefer to have the rifle shooting as I would use it in the field and will do my testing as such, if I cannot get it to shoot the way I want to use it, well I guess I have to go other routes.

If I hung a dream catcher off the brake, then maybe I'd get better results.

When did I say you was nuts?



billdick said:
I told him in his 300 hundred page post about accuracy problems to bed the barrel at the end of the stock with something as simple as paper just to try to see what he would get for results. More often then not the barrel has a bad song or vibration when fired and if you can change the song a little bit groups usually tighten up. If not oh well it didn't cost anything but time and ammo to try. He told me I was nuts
Click to expand...
 
There was a great effort to get this rifle to shoot on my part.No I am not a gunsmith.

The rifle is a Savage 111 , and set up in an XLR Chassis system,Mark 4 rings, EGW base and Sightron 10-50X, it is bedded as best that the frame of the chassis will allow.The action screws have been looked after and torqued.The scope has been verified on another rifle.The brake thoroughly inspected for bullet interference.I have tried shooting the rifle rested on vary positions on the rifle.I tried 3 different bullets and two different powders.Tried different shooters and varying temperatures.I am sure there is more I tried but cannot remember it all at this point.

I purchased the rifle new unfired but here on the EE , so not going to mess with warranty, like I said in my other thread my intention was to shoot this barrel and then upgrade eventually, but just looks like that is going to happen a tad sooner.

coyote said:
Well it could be all kinds of things causing the poor grouping, the best thing to do imo is send it to a smith like Guntech that knows what to look for and maybe resolve the problem quickly.

I was under the impression it was a custom build, if it is a fairly new gun send it to savage for waranty.


Edit: Ok I read some of your posts with the ladder testing, I'm not even sure what kind of gun you're shooting does it have a flimsy plastic stock , laminate , or composite and is it properly bedded?

My guess is there might not be to much wrong with the rifle , Afriend of mine had a dud from savage a few years ago but it was in like 8 inches @ 100yds .
Something tells me yours just needs a bit of tweaking.
Click to expand...
 
Have you tried it with good factory ammo to see how it compares to your reloads , have you measured the throat to try the bullets close to the lands sometimes this will tighten it up.

Another thing you can try if the bullets are to long to fit the mag when chasing the lands is seat them to fit and lightly crimp them with an rcbs type seater , this will make the pressures build up more consistently.

Assuming the bedding is properly done have a smith recut the crown more often then none this will greatly improve the performance.

Is your brass lapua and new.
 
I have tried factory Hornady , was only thing available locally.Nothing to brag about with that either.Again, inconsistency even with the inconsistencies.

When I felt I was getting close to a load I tried to duplicate it and then tweak it with varying seating depths, I disregarded the magazine but did start with rounds that fit, and changed later, if it was a single feed, so be it.Have not tried with a crimp but feel I am beyond small tweaks like that.

My brass is Lapua and new, I have also worked the necks and trued them, and with a bushing sizer have about 0.0015" to 0.002" interference.Well it is now on it's second firing but by myself.I do have some once fired that I was going to use after establishing a load.

It is a lot of reading and took a long time but the targets so such inconsistency it is nuts, could not duplicate even the inconsistencies, get a nice group that shows promise, shoot a second group with same load, different pattern.Never had issues like this, my BLR shoots better and with 1/10 the effort in load development.

coyote said:
Have you tried it with good factory ammo to see how it compares to your reloads , have you measured the throat to try the bullets close to the lands sometimes this will tighten it up.

Another thing you can try if the bullets are to long to fit the mag when chasing the lands is seat them to fit and lightly crimp them with an rcbs type seater , this will make the pressures build up more consistently.

Assuming the bedding is properly done have a smith recut the crown more often then none this will greatly improve the performance.

Is your brass lapua and new.
Click to expand...
 
Not that it will tell a lot after making it through end to end but did you check with a micrometer the diameter of that slug as it sits now?
 
I haven't read all your threads but have you tried a temporary pressure point at the end of the barrel as others mentioned? Super simple to try and it may tighten up the groups tremendously. If it does then bed in a permanent pressure point.

I've done this to several rifles with great results. Some times there is no change or minimal but it's definitely worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
 
As it is a chassis system with an aluminum shroud I opted not to try this method .Didn't want 1/2" material between the barrel and shroud.Also I am not sure what this would do at the action end of things as it fulled surrounds the chamber/lug area which is secured with a sleeve from the mounting system.

I understand the purpose of the pressure point and would have tried with a different stock.


jbmauser said:
I haven't read all your threads but have you tried a temporary pressure point at the end of the barrel as others mentioned? Super simple to try and it may tighten up the groups tremendously. If it does then bed in a permanent pressure point.

I've done this to several rifles with great results. Some times there is no change or minimal but it's definitely worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
Click to expand...
 
Kelly, something tells me the bedding isn't done properly if the rear tang is touching you will never get it to group.

Have it bedded correctly and try it again, another thing I am curious about is bolt head clearance, this is a long shot but take a piece of solder wire and close the bolt head on it then measure the thickness of the squished wire.
You should have between 5 and 10 thous if it touches it will never group.

In my previous post I mentioned the crown of the barrel this should not be overlooked.
 
Bedding this system, is at best a major challenge, I was able to get the lug bedded decently aside from ascetics.The rest of the action did get some bedding material under it but definitely isn't the same as doing a regular stock.Pre and post bedding never did seem to change anything.

The crown does "look" like there are not any issues as from what I can see with the brake still on, I do have photos of the crown somewhere in my threads if you are curious.

I will try to do check the bolt clearance as well and post what I find when I do it.

I am guessing that when Jerry does the barrel he would find whatever maybe be my issues if there is one present.


coyote said:
Kelly, something tells me the bedding isn't done properly if the rear tang is touching you will never get it to group.

Have it bedded correctly and try it again, another thing I am curious about is bolt head clearance, this is a long shot but take a piece of solder wire and close the bolt head on it then measure the thickness of the squished wire.
You should have between 5 and 10 thous if it touches it will never group.

In my previous post I mentioned the crown of the barrel this should not be overlooked.
Click to expand...
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
Go get some 5/16" dowel I have, just enough to fit but does follow the rifling.Cut pieces once again.Start out with mallet and tapping, well frick!!! this bloody thing won't go!!So I get a metal hammer, and it just starts to move and then, it takes off.Just before the chamber it tightens up significantly , almost to the point I feel the dowel will break again but it did decide to make it through.

So, as this is my first time, I don't know for sure but it sure didn't seem right to me.

How say you all? Anything more I need to post to help out diagnosis?
Click to expand...

Barrels tight at the muzzle usually shoot well. Barrels tight ( as tight as you describe) in front of the chamber not so much. Find out what is causing this tightness. Look through a bore scope to see if there is a defect. ( warranty). If it is just tight and shows no defect, it could be lapped with diamond paste on a tight fitting slug. This is equipment a custom barrel maker has for finish lapping. I don't think you could convince Savage to replace it with no visible defect, but showing them the poor groups and explaining the tightness ahead of the chamber may work.

NormB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom